girls school

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:07 am

now this begs the question - does TB not recognise scarcasm? or is he the master of it?

grimep
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:47 pm

Postby grimep » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:35 am

oh dear. My SES PsychoBabble Alarm is flashing!

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:01 am

so its the former then???

grimep
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:47 pm

Postby grimep » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:08 am

My PsychoBabble (tm) Alarm was flashing in response to this:-

"You need to learn to think and speak for yourself, not rely on others."

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:17 am

ahhh - TB.

And Snowman recognised this eh?

and TB doesn't "get" scarcasm.

am i on the right track here?

TB
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:51 pm

Postby TB » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:12 pm

ADG,

Do you seriously expect me to be sarcastic when dealing with an intellect like yours?

Grimep,

Does chucking in a comment about 'SES psychobabble' indicate some sort of seige mentality about the SES? It seems your annoyance over my comments is causing you to lump me with SES badness. Does it offer you a convenient way around logical thought and evidence? Its an effective technique often used by politicians, but makes for lazy, sloppy discussion.

grimep
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:47 pm

Postby grimep » Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:40 pm

TB wrote:ADG,

Do you seriously expect me to be sarcastic when dealing with an intellect like yours?

Grimep,

Does chucking in a comment about 'SES psychobabble' indicate some sort of seige mentality about the SES? It seems your annoyance over my comments is causing you to lump me with SES badness. Does it offer you a convenient way around logical thought and evidence? Its an effective technique often used by politicians, but makes for lazy, sloppy discussion.


What do you mean, "seige mentality" about the SES? Seige mentality as in I'd love to see someone drive a big metaphorical wooden horse into the middle of their f*cked up organisation and take it apart, then yes.

As someone until recently involved very closely with the school you must be very well aware that as a member your critical faculties are modified by SES-think. It manifests (yikes, I'm using 'SES' words meself now!) itself in modes of speech, thought processes and the actual choice words spoken. In fact, down to the very premise of the conversation.

I think many of us are who consider their lives to have been detrimentally influenced by the SES are quite sensitive to these signals, and are likely to pounce on them when they are perceived. So apologies if I was doing that unfairly to you. However, the tone of your last paragraph makes me very suspicious of your stance.

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:24 pm

TB wrote:ADG,

Do you seriously expect me to be sarcastic when dealing with an intellect like yours?
.

Oh TB - and I thought you were my board buddy! *pout*

lowpass
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:58 pm

Postby lowpass » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:42 pm

hi TB, a few comments.

TB wrote:My school had a homosexual priest who regularly approached small boys with bribes of sweets, so he could put his hand in their pants. Some kids made an industry out of it and made hard cash to do unnatural things with him. This was widely known through the school by the kids, but not overtly by the priests or lay teachers. It went on unchecked 20 or more years until sometime in the 80s when he was removed to a more remote post. I was not a direct victim but friends of mine who were approached did not seem overly traumatised.


Your statement the "kids made an industry out of it" and were therefore somehow complicit is for me an outrageous statement, as is your observation that children are not "overly" traumatised by sexual abuse. I note your precise term 'overly'. So they were a little bit? I'm rather stunned a parent can write that. Many catholic priests are in jail for abusing children in the past.

TB wrote:These are 1st world examples, how about visiting a school during those times in some 3rd world countries, like Ethiopia?


Comparing 70's London to Addis Ababa especially just after Selassie's deposition is ridiculous.


TB wrote:One poster said that comparison to military is not valid because here we are dealing with adults. Let me assure you there are plenty of young children who carry arms for their countries and discipline, to this day, is severe. Is someone going to tell me that a comparison between 1st and 3rd world children is not valid?


"....let me assure you..." Forgive me but your use of language is very pompous and reminds me a lot of SES. I work directly with young kids and refugees who have been brought up in countries such as Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Somalia. To say St James was nothing out of the ordinary because SOME schools and SOME regimes in other countries brutalise their children is nonsensical, and irrelevant to the issue under discussion, namely ex St James students coming to terms with physical and psychological systematic abuse. It is wrong to abuse kids in Lagos, it is wrong to abuse them in Queensgate. No one is suggesting St James has a monopoly on evil. It is/was however due to it's post Gierdjeff doctrine, unique. Furthermore taking into account the massive different political and human situation that exists between 1st and 3rd world countries it is "simplistic" comparison in any case. If for the sake of your argument an affluent school in London has similarities to a hypothetical school in a country under a dictator in a third world country where the population may be in a civil war, starving, or in extreme stress, that is very troubling is it not?


TB wrote:As a past schoolchild and parent I can tell without doubt that I actively mould my own children in specific 'no choice' behaviours, just as I watch the school do.
I am not suggesting this is wrong or immoral, however do not imagine that schools are designed to teach free will and autonomy.


We are all past school children. The original quote you used in your example contained the words "deceit, anxiety and stress". I find these extremely questionable ways to educate children or adults. I experienced those practices in St James, and experienced nothing of the sort in other schools and institutions I attended. Only an imbecile will argue that telling a child to stop talking in class and beating them for not meditating are one and the same, merely being unified examples of a "no choice" instruction situation.


TB wrote: I have no experience of St James school but feel that it is mirrored in many schools in the west during those years, and by many schools in the developing countries today. To single SES out and decide that it is uniquely evil and has traits that are abnormal in society is simplistic.



You can "feel" all you want but it is obtuse to admit you have no experience of a subject and to then make comparisons against it. To compare St James with schools in the developing world to prove it's normality takes simplicity and irrationality to stratospheric heights.


TB wrote:I intend no insult to what past students experienced, by all means seek retribution and apology. Is it necessary to create a monster where none exists and ignore the fact that most human social behaviour operates like this?


If no "monster" existed why do you think some ex students are so angry? Maybe we are all just deluded. After leaving SES and St James I have yet to see the "human social behaviour" I witnessed there exhibited anywhere else, third world or otherwise.


Virtuoso use of the quote system though huh?

TB
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:51 pm

Postby TB » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:49 pm

Grimep

You say

As someone until recently involved very closely with the school you must be very well aware that as a member your critical faculties are modified by SES-think. It manifests (yikes, I'm using 'SES' words meself now!) itself in modes of speech, thought processes and the actual choice words spoken. In fact, down to the very premise of the conversation


No doubt you are correct in part, but also note that your thinking, and that of all involved in SES St James, is similarly moulded. My SES life is 7 years ago, even at the time I had many views they did not consider suitable for their school and they tried to iron them out of me, without apparent success. The thoughts of us all are influenced by our social backgrounds, my own is far more diverse that attendance at SES only, so you might consider that my use of language comes from mixed sources.

I think many of us are who consider their lives to have been detrimentally influenced by the SES are quite sensitive to these signals, and are likely to pounce on them when they are perceived. So apologies if I was doing that unfairly to you. However, the tone of your last paragraph makes me very suspicious of your stance


I think your criticisms were well directed and no apology is required. I do not think you will find my stance places me as either for or against SES, or the anti SES lobby on this board.

TB
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:51 pm

Postby TB » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:57 am

lowpass, thanks for a detailed response.

Your statement the "kids made an industry out of it" and were therefore somehow complicit is for me an outrageous statement, as is your observation that children are not "overly" traumatised by sexual abuse. I note your precise term 'overly'. So they were a little bit? I'm rather stunned a parent can write that


Whether complicit or not, a couple of kids decided that they could make money from this, and did so. Most kids however steered clear. I was not aware that any violence or physical forcing occurred. For most of the kids at school it was something of a joke, and at that stage, we made no moral judgements. As an adult and parent, and well versed in moral judgements, I now have a different outlook. I only told my parents much later, without any specific motive of hiding or revealing what had happened. It is difficult for me to describe a sense of what it was like in a few words, however as a kid (emphasis) observing without too much interest, it really was no big deal.



Comparing 70's London to Addis Ababa especially just after Selassie's deposition is ridiculous.



The military comparison in 3rd world countries only arose because another poster discounted a military comparison because it did not apply to children. I responded that there are military systems that do enlist children.

My school comparisons are 1st world examples only, including my personal experiences.

If for the sake of your argument an affluent school in London has similarities to a hypothetical school in a country under a dictator in a third world country where the population may be in a civil war, starving, or in extreme stress, that is very troubling is it not?


It would be, however I think you are taking the extreme end of my comparisons. I do not think St James is anywhere near the same brutality of examples you could find in the 3rd world, my comparison was about the ability of social groupings to control individual behaviour, in ways that have moral implications.

I do think that although the brutality at St James did have some differences with other schools in the UK, my basic point remains that many first world schools gave punishment in ways now considered immoral.

I do not imply support for their behaviour by this comparison, or that redress should not be sought.

The original quote you used in your example contained the words "deceit, anxiety and stress". I find these extremely questionable ways to educate children or adults. I experienced those practices in St James, and experienced nothing of the sort in other schools and institutions I attended. Only an imbecile will argue that telling a child to stop talking in class and beating them for not meditating are one and the same, merely being unified examples of a "no choice" instruction situation.


Deceit, anxiety and stress might be questionable ways to educate adults and children, but that is not the same as asking if they exist in educational systems. If you are not aware of these happening in other schools and institutions does this mean they do not exist? What if they do exist, but you have never considered it? In my opinion they are very subtle and considered very normal, words like 'deceit' and 'coerce' are very emotive. Subsequently there is a strong aversion to their use in normal situations, and denial of their existence.

Since you seem to be calling me an imbecile, let me say that 'beating for not meditating' and 'stop talking' are of course different. They do however apply the same principles of conforming minds to certain imposed standards. Perhaps only an imbecile can see the distinction between these two ways of looking for common ground?

You can "feel" all you want but it is obtuse to admit you have no experience of a subject and to then make comparisons against it. To compare St James with schools in the developing world to prove it's normality takes simplicity and irrationality to stratospheric heights.



Imbeciles are known to be obtuse, however St James is not a 'subject', it is a school. The 'subject' is that of brutality and corporal punishment in schools and I do have experience of that. Not having personally attended St James, I can only infer what it was like by the stories on this forum. I realise its no substitute for those who experienced it, but comparisons are still possible - even for imbeciles.

Once again, I did not intend to compare 3rd world schools to St James, if I did so, I apologise, I was over enthusiatic.


After leaving SES and St James I have yet to see the "human social behaviour" I witnessed there exhibited anywhere else, third world or otherwise.


I take it from this comment that you have visited 3rd world countries and have seen nothing to compare to St James. You mentioned earlier that they were not comparable. If you did miss seeing something worse in the 3rd world, might I ask where you were looking? The tourist hotels manage to keep most of these things from spoiling good holidays in paradise, but some things even non-imbeciles could not avoid noticing.

Virtuoso use of the quote system though huh?


Undoubtedly the most impressive part of your post.

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:00 am

Undoubtedly the most impressive part of your post.


miow miouw

and how on earth can you spend so long claiming you WEREN'T comparing 1st world with 3rd world schools when the post WAS doing exactly that?

Witness
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:55 pm

TB

Postby Witness » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:30 am

Dear all,

Has anyone noticed how beneficial it is to have TB regularly posting like this?

His messages have contributed immensely to an intelligent critique of the SES and St James.

His posts remind us all of the tone and attitudes that we have experienced in St James and SES. His behaviour in the present confirms our shared views about St James and SES in the difficult past.

I have found TB's views on paedophilia particularly alarming, and remind me of the lack of understanding for children that SES has in general. The moral over-confidence that his messages are full of also are a replica of the language used by authority figures in SES.

Without TB, our discussions and memories would be less meaningful to the outsider. Now, many people considering joining the SES or St James will find this board on e.g. 'yahoo', and look at the discourse that takes place here.

Just like audiences of the best narratives in the world (Shakespeare?! Mozart?! The Upanishads?!), people often respond well to being shown rather than told.

No doubt TB will correct me on this one: In literary terms, I understand its the difference between 'dialectic' (being shown) and 'didactic' (being told).

Thankyou, TB, for showing us what we have left behind at SES and St James.

Please don't be scared off by the personal flaming that you have received on this message board. I for one want you to keep writing, TB.


Witness.
Last edited by Witness on Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:30 am

Without TB, our discussions and memories would be less meaningful to the outsider


as an "outsider" I can vouch for this statement.

emmalu9
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:07 pm
Location: London

Postby emmalu9 » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:40 am

Witness, I agree with your sentiments on TB. His stance on the forum is that of a critical observer, he writes a lot without saying anything at all. He alludes to SES experience but shares no information. His postings serve only to ?play the devil?s advocate? on a sit whose purpose is for the transparent discussion of St James and SES, not for vague hypothesising and simply criticising those brave enough to speak out about their experiences. I?m not suggesting that we should all agree with one another, but I don?t believe sitting around arguing for the sake of it is useful either.

TB, what is your actual SES experience? Why don?t you tell us? You were lucky enough to have the choice of whether to join and when to leave the SES. You will never understand the loss of a childhood to its poisonous rubbish.

On the other hand, your detachment from your experience of sexual abuse as a child could mean that it actually affected you more than you realise. Often children deal with traumatic events by shutting down, leaving them with little or no memory of it at all. You could have more feelings about those sexual abusers than you remember.


Return to “St James and St Vedast”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests