THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

[stiltrubld]

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[bluegreen]

Thank you stiltrubld.

[stiltrubld]

I have discovered that the quote of 'ladies material' dictation by PSR is possibly faked, as apparently Matt Stollar and PSR (and oneoff) are all the same person! So, if anyone knows of any 'material for ladies' that is genuine, it would be good to see it.

I have amended some of this post.

The following sums up my understanding about how such ideas get so entrenched. This quote is taken from: ‘The Gurdjieff Work’ by Kathleen Riordan Speeth and she quotes Robert de Ropp (whose books include ‘The Master Game’):

“Having taken an essence oath to get out of the guru racket and stay out of it, I have serious misgivings about the validity of what you call the Gurdjieff Work. The more I see of it and the effects it produces, the better I like Zen.”

How can a person who is seriously interested in self-transformation move wisely among all the teachers, false teachers, innovators, preservers, and well- or ill-meaning organisations that may be possible sources of real help – or real damage?

Said de Ropp:

“Even people who sincerely wish to transform themselves and to assist in the transformation of others can lose their way because of credulity, because they would rather believe blindly than test things out for themselves. All attempts, therefore, on the part of those who have attained inner freedom to liberate men from their bondage, tend to become frustrated by the credulity of man, coupled with his laziness and reluctance to think for himself.

So, no matter how powerful the teacher, his followers can always be trusted to make a mishmash of his teachings and bring his world to a halt. This they generally do by creating a cult of personality around the teacher himself, and fossilizing everything in exactly the form in which it was given. Using this fossilized teaching they engage in mechanical repetitions of certain patterns of behaviour, assuring themselves and each other that they will attain liberation and higher consciousness as long as they never, never make the slightest change in anything the master taught.

But life is change, and what is appropriate for one period is not necessarily valid for another. So all this effort to hold onto certain forms only results in arrest of development. So another teacher has to appear, smash the fossil, and start all over again. This of course, causes shrieks of indignation among the True Believers, whose sleep is disturbed and whose comfortable habits are disarranged.”

[stiltrubld]

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Using this space to thank Bluegreen and Free for your thanks.

Also want to mention Matt Stollar: Finding him fascinating - what a mind. Maybe a bit 'naughty' but so intelligent and sensitive, in all his names - Sandra too apparently!

So, I just want to say that you kids born of the SES establishment are really fabulous and I am very pleased to have come across you on this forum, just a pity that the situation is as it is - with all the problems that were caused by the overzealous past.

[Free]

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[ET]

Parent and Pupils Inquiry Action Group (http://www.stjamesinquiry.org/SES/SES_page.html)

I've asked this question on here before, but got no response (I guess the right people didn't read it).

Does the PPIAG still exist? The last time I looked at the website there hadn't been any activity on there for ages. I'd like to get involved if it still exists.

[Jo-Anne Morgan]

But life is change, and what is appropriate for one period is not necessarily valid for another. So all this effort to hold onto certain forms only results in arrest of development. ”[/i]

How true. Leon Maclaren in fact was actually trying to hold on to forms from the Victorian era.

On 13th Nov, there is a programme on C4 about widows in Nepal. I quote:
In Nepal, widows are considered to be social pariahs who are despised, insulted and abused. It makes no difference if the husband died from natural causes or was killed fighting in a war. Their widows are cursed. ........One man openly admits he is so irritated with his 13 year old daughter who was widowed a year ago that he beats her and treats her as a slave.........The in-laws are just as cruel, considering widows to be bad luck and holding them responsible for the death of their son.............One Hindu religious leader explains that the widows are being punished for a sin in a previous life. He even suggests that the traditional practice of sati (where the wife throws herself on her husband's funeral pyre) should be resurrected.

Lambie and Co, by revering 'The Laws of Manu', are upholding and supporting these kind of views. I guess it's just a game to them, in their smug little worlds with their 'wonderful analogies', but some people are living it and it's mediaeval and it stinks.

[carlynnm8]

I found this story about the widows really disturbing and strongly disagree with much of the Hindu beliefs and practices taught by the school. That is why the SOP and SES has to be more open about who and what they are. I joined a general Philosophy class - I did not know I was joining a school which taught a particular Eastern philosophy and that has particular Hindu beliefs. I also didn't know that this general philosophy class would then try to take over and put so much pressure on me to give up so much of my private life and time. The school pretends to be about Philosophers and Philosphy in general - but it very clearly isn't, sadly it takes many years to find that out. You just get deeper and deeper in. When I left I was upset at how dishonest the organisation was about who they are and what they teach. It is my choice which religion I choose and which tradition I follow - how dare they force people down this road - and they do this by pretending to be this lovely, caring oasis in the midst of this mad world. This organisation misleads people and before you know it you have been attending for 6 or 10 or 20 years and have practically given up your outside life because of all the chores and meetings and residentials and housecleaning and........ This is anything but a healthy organisation. It's attitudes to women are medieaval, oppressive and downright demeaning. Where is the true wisdom in these attitudes and behaviours. Where was the true Self in the person making the rules in this organisation. There are many nice people in this organisation who truly believe in what they teach and I feel so sorry for them - especially if they ever really wake up and see what this organisation is about. In my time there I observed quite a few dedicated people suffering physical and mental breakdowns with very little support or even acknowledgement of what happened to them - they were very quickly forgotton. Very sad indeed.

I wonder if they really think it wise to cover up what they are really about? The organisation claims to uncover the Truth - by dishonest means!! Im so glad I eventually listened to the niggling doubts which I had previously put down to "ego" - thanks to all the brainwashing.

[bluemoon]

I have been thinking about all this 'defamatory' stuff and why that would be a problem. The truth is that 'defamation' is not really a problem, since often it merely indicates the person doing the 'defamation' to be as bad as the person or organisation who is 'defamed'.

I wondered if there are any ex-SES people (or anyone else for that matter) who could take a look at this section of the Laws of Manu on 'Student Life', the new translation of which was studied by the SES/SOP world Leaders last December ('08) and as indicated above this work has had a profound influence in the SES over the years (including now being taught to A level Sanskrit students currently at St J). One of its more sinister aspects in my opinion (apart from the gender issues) is that those who criticise this work are considered to be 'outcasts' (see verses 10 & 11 below) and then anything goes, they can be treated with contempt or worse. I cannot overemphasise how this work could be used to lead to the most diabolical of social systems and indeed it was admired by Nietzsche, in turn admired by the Nazis.

So, what does this chapter really mean? This work is for me the bottom line of why I contribute here, due to an intense fear of where admiration for some of the things in it could lead. But maybe I have misunderstood it.

Bluemoon/stiltrubld


THE LAWS OF MANU: CHAPTER II

See: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm and click on Chapter II

(I Have taken out the verses from below as they take up so much room.)

[Ahamty2]

One has to ask, what is the purpose of these new translations of the Laws of Manu that the SES is so hung up on producing? Is it some huge intellectual exercise to give everyone in the SES something to engage in over the next few years? Do they intend presenting it to the Indian Govt saying we have updated your 2000 years old Laws of Manu which are part of your sociological and psychological fabric all this time in English for you to read or do they intend to introduce it in the British Parliament as an alternative to Sharia Law for the laws of England!

They love dead languages, first latin for Ficino , then sanskrit, another dead language, that even hindustanis’ can’t translate themselves even if the script is the same. Even Advaita is not practiced by the majority of Indians today. Why not ancient egyptian, ancient greek, ancient aramaic, ancient chinese, ancient arabic, ancient persian. The SES should set itself up as the University of the Ancients.
Doesn't everything simply gets 'lost in translation'. Those of us who are bi- or more lingual know that we think in our mother tongue, you have to know the nuances of the language to translate and it is dependent on the person's ability to do this and your own slant on the language and intentions.

Social commentators from the sub continent criticise the out dated social fabric of India. Deepa Mehta trilogy “Element” films do this very well. These should be compulsory viewing for all SES’s. Her “Water” element has the Laws of Manu governing widows as it prologue. If these films can be watched without any emotions then one is either emotional dead or have their emotions encased in concrete. I have watched “Water” three times and even the third still left me moved to tears.

Why doesn't everyone in the SES/SOP simply move to India and live there, so that they then can have first hand experience of what it is really like to live under the real life conditions of India, after all the British exploited its people for long enough! The British Raj did regard it as their 'Jewel in the Crown'.

[bluegreen]

Relevant to today? It looks like a load of total crap to me.

[halucagenic jesus]

Thankyou Stilton. I went back and re readrevelations and was suprised to still agree with 50 to 60% of it.

the spacebus is flying with silver foil diplomacy through much clearer skies

You are the first person to ever call me intelligent and with a clear mind.

A dove calls through whispered sunrise
calling the ether in from a desolate strorm two miles above

I'm really really grateful for that and see it as a message from spirit.

To be honest I'm only just feeling it myself over the last week.

Possibly it was the acid trip a year ago. No I don't advocate such things just a one of for me

It was just a one off. Might have killed a lesser mind infact it did kill the lesser mind absolutely astonishing to find myself catching up with it's prophesy a year later. The acid indicated. Now the mind talks.


I like it.

As a general apology to anyone who I offended I give out my unreserved greetings.

I'm sorry to have behaved in a 'manipulative' way back in 2004. I didn't know any better.

There was a wall to be walked through with no knowledge of what was on the other side

I still can't tell the relative values of innocence and manipulation and whether sometimes you 'have' to be manipulative.

I'd like to think not.


We all do it.



I certainly like a good 50% joke with my serious.

sometimes 90%

It's not manipulative just fun and taking the piss, out of you,me and life. I'm trying to de evolve the part of me that gets
offended takes critism too personally etc lovers wait

I have to learn to receive as well as give that is my only rule on that one when I can remember to tell myself off.

If anyone wants to come to my meditation class contact me through your mind.

I am there waiting to guide you inward.

When you've had enough of me faze me out and remember yourself.

I am merely a cipher of that which is indescribable.
Indescribable and indescribably ours

Hallucagenic Jesus




It's been so long. Won't someone start another website. In one of my bubbles I'm getting lonely and it's unfair that this website and people in cohorts have a virtual monopoly on what is said about the S.E.S apart from by the SES itself. Talking 6 years ago was enormously important but I never got a chance to resolve any of it fully with fellow travellers. I definately feel in a new period. Mid 30's. Time to start leading life! If there are 20 ex SES members who are still spiritual and not the atheist stones it would be nice to have our chatline. I'm not being manipulative here on purpose. It would just be nice to talk to a few exes again.

I must find a wife.too


Life needen't be too serious

It was nice to catch up and be applauded.

I feel a rennaissance slight light window flight fight diet

Fight diet

[bluemoon]

Is that me you're calling 'stilton', halucagenic?! Very good joke - very funny! I'm a bit thick, took me a while to get it.

Thanks for your message.

I'm sorry about your lonely bubble.

I have wondered about putting a thread up about Gangaji's teaching - she talks of the so-called 'teaching' in what I would describe as a 'good' way. If you and anyone else are interested we could give it a go perhaps - if Daffy is OK with it? But it would not be about the SES, it would be to discuss the useful side of the real 'teaching' or 'awakening' whatever people like to call it, or think of it as. Because here none of the useful SES stuff is discussed only the negative really, so I wonder if this would be nice change. I'll start a topic and see if anything happens.

Love, Bluemoon (stiltrubld)

[Free]

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[Tootsie]

Think we should keep posts about SES only. Plenty other places where people discuss Gangaji's teachings. But no objection to giving a web site for those that are interested.