A simple question for David Boddy
I?ve just recently learnt from a current parent that Mr Lacey continues to shout at his pupils today. The parent has had to warn the school that if this continues they will remove their child from the school.
Is it not bad enough that this man has already been found to have perpetrated abuses? Is it not bad enough that St James are still employing him with full knowledge of this? And I now find out that it?s still going on...
Is it not bad enough that this man has already been found to have perpetrated abuses? Is it not bad enough that St James are still employing him with full knowledge of this? And I now find out that it?s still going on...
I think this is another of those situations in which you have to be there.
On the face of it, a teacher shouting at pupils is not out of the ordinary - I love my kids dearly, but I shout at them regularly. Imagine having to teach 30 kids without shouting - there may be a few who can do it, but what works for one will not work for another even if it were possible to achieve.
The trouble is, that is said without the context of the man and his history. Like many on here, I have been subjected to his short-tempered outbursts, and although in those days it was normally preceded by him hitting me, it was always the manner in which he shouted. It was always in your face, deafening and extremely threatening, in essence , completely in excess of what was required. It is difficult to respect someone who behaves that way.
So, if he's still screaming at very young children then it is dispicable behaviour, but if he has changed his ways then there could possibly be a valid explantion. Until we know more we cannot say. However, if the man would like us to believe he has truely changed, then I suggest that he comes to this forum and appologises first, then explains his current attitude to the dicipline of children.
It's simple, talk to us and we can move on, hide behind lawyers and we only remember you as you were 25 years ago.
Alban
On the face of it, a teacher shouting at pupils is not out of the ordinary - I love my kids dearly, but I shout at them regularly. Imagine having to teach 30 kids without shouting - there may be a few who can do it, but what works for one will not work for another even if it were possible to achieve.
The trouble is, that is said without the context of the man and his history. Like many on here, I have been subjected to his short-tempered outbursts, and although in those days it was normally preceded by him hitting me, it was always the manner in which he shouted. It was always in your face, deafening and extremely threatening, in essence , completely in excess of what was required. It is difficult to respect someone who behaves that way.
So, if he's still screaming at very young children then it is dispicable behaviour, but if he has changed his ways then there could possibly be a valid explantion. Until we know more we cannot say. However, if the man would like us to believe he has truely changed, then I suggest that he comes to this forum and appologises first, then explains his current attitude to the dicipline of children.
It's simple, talk to us and we can move on, hide behind lawyers and we only remember you as you were 25 years ago.
Alban
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Alban - I have to respectfully disagree that it is normal for a teacher to shout at his pupils. I have been teaching for years and I have never once yelled at my students. I have also babysat for even longer and haven't yelled at those children either. I see no reason why I will yell at my kids. After all, I expect them not to yell at me, so I should model the behavior I expect.
I would be one upset parent if my chid came home from school to tell me that his/her teacher yelled/shouted at the class or a student. There are many gentle ways of providing discipline and particularly when you are working with other people's children, you should have the self discipline to use those.
I would be one upset parent if my chid came home from school to tell me that his/her teacher yelled/shouted at the class or a student. There are many gentle ways of providing discipline and particularly when you are working with other people's children, you should have the self discipline to use those.
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the boddy problem
Is it not possible in the UK teaching system for someone to lodge a teaching complaint directly with the relevant authority or minister for education (?) -- rather than having to expect the board of governors or the SES to do something .
It seems unlikely that any internal action will be initiated so why cannot he be brought to account by direct external intervention.?
It seems unlikely that any internal action will be initiated so why cannot he be brought to account by direct external intervention.?
Skeptic
I agree that the ideal would be for all teachers to have the respect of and control over the children meaning that shouting was not necessary. In fact one of my son's teachers was exactly like that, but in my experience, this is the exception rather than the rule.
It must vary from place to place, but in inner London where there is a massive ethnic and social diversity, a state run school has to deal with children who've had little or no discipline at home alongside those that have had plenty. If the children get shouted at home, then they will shout at the teachers at school and to a certain extent expect to get shouted at back. Worse still is at the end of the day, the parents will come to collect their children and then end up shouting at the teacher because something is not to their liking. I'm not saying this is how it should be, just how it is. What works for one group of children will not work for others. In these circumstances, it is a very special teacher indeed who can control all the children without raising their voice.
In the context of a private school where the fees ensure a selection process, the diversity is not so great and you would hope that the teacher would be able to maintain a much calmer environment.
I have yet to meet a parent who has not shouted at their own children at some stage. None of us want to do it, most of us feel bad having done it but none of us are perfect. Some of it is borne from fear (like shouting at a child to stop them running into the path of a car and then shouting at them afterwards as an emotional response to what could have happened), some of it frustration, some of it anger. It is almost impossible not to succumb in some circumstances, and children will often push until they get a reaction, so it is a self-perpetuating cycle.
Again, let me stress that I am not commenting on the particular incident in question (as I am not in full possession of the facts) and I am similarly not trying to defend the teacher in question. I am merely commenting from my own experience as a parent and as a product of state education in London.
Alban
It must vary from place to place, but in inner London where there is a massive ethnic and social diversity, a state run school has to deal with children who've had little or no discipline at home alongside those that have had plenty. If the children get shouted at home, then they will shout at the teachers at school and to a certain extent expect to get shouted at back. Worse still is at the end of the day, the parents will come to collect their children and then end up shouting at the teacher because something is not to their liking. I'm not saying this is how it should be, just how it is. What works for one group of children will not work for others. In these circumstances, it is a very special teacher indeed who can control all the children without raising their voice.
In the context of a private school where the fees ensure a selection process, the diversity is not so great and you would hope that the teacher would be able to maintain a much calmer environment.
I have yet to meet a parent who has not shouted at their own children at some stage. None of us want to do it, most of us feel bad having done it but none of us are perfect. Some of it is borne from fear (like shouting at a child to stop them running into the path of a car and then shouting at them afterwards as an emotional response to what could have happened), some of it frustration, some of it anger. It is almost impossible not to succumb in some circumstances, and children will often push until they get a reaction, so it is a self-perpetuating cycle.
Again, let me stress that I am not commenting on the particular incident in question (as I am not in full possession of the facts) and I am similarly not trying to defend the teacher in question. I am merely commenting from my own experience as a parent and as a product of state education in London.
Alban
Where to from here?
I think we have heard from DB on this one. Despite believing it is valid to keep asking the question, I suspect by itslef this unlikely to elicit a further response.
It seems that DB believes the reprimands are an appropriate response to the report.
So - Where to from here?
I have two thoughts.
Firstly, the report, whilst being better than those abused dared hope for, is in fact not sufficiently damning to require any meaningful action, and therefore needs to be put to one side. This means those who have been abused should commision their own report. Expensive - but with the liklihood that a more sensible approach to considering evidence etc can be taken. Anyone any thoughts on the cost? My first guess is UKP20K.
Secondly, we take this to an independent authority - Independent Schools Inspectorate? The government? The press?
Comments?
It seems that DB believes the reprimands are an appropriate response to the report.
So - Where to from here?
I have two thoughts.
Firstly, the report, whilst being better than those abused dared hope for, is in fact not sufficiently damning to require any meaningful action, and therefore needs to be put to one side. This means those who have been abused should commision their own report. Expensive - but with the liklihood that a more sensible approach to considering evidence etc can be taken. Anyone any thoughts on the cost? My first guess is UKP20K.
Secondly, we take this to an independent authority - Independent Schools Inspectorate? The government? The press?
Comments?
Child member of SES from around 1967 to around 1977; Strongly involved in Sunday Schools ; Five brothers and sisters went to ST V and St J in the worst years
Personally I think if anyone is going to raise ?20K - suing them for damages would be a better, and perhaps more effective option.
Any no win no fee lawyers out there? doesnt matter how much commission they charge - for me it would be the SES parting with money which would make the whole excercise worthwhile.
As they've now said thats pretty much the end of the matter - I think they deserve it.
Any no win no fee lawyers out there? doesnt matter how much commission they charge - for me it would be the SES parting with money which would make the whole excercise worthwhile.
As they've now said thats pretty much the end of the matter - I think they deserve it.
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