A non subserviant girl's opinion-pls read this objectively

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
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bella
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Postby bella » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:42 am

I don't think they were saying the schools have a gender equity policy, ADG. They were saying there is a girls' climbing club, after you said there wasn't one.

The State school I attended didn't have a gender equity policy either. I'd sort of rather be able to use a wood lathe than bake a fruit log, but eh.
Last edited by bella on Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

mgormez
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Postby mgormez » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:44 am

Theo, here's for you. I am not going to quote you as it takes too much editing


On point 2. The SES doesn't have to be actively involved because the ideology is already firmly in place. Pause, Sanskrit, Vedic math (a creation of a Sankracharya). And who do you think decided what was "divine music"?

3. If they hadn't the right to be there with the leaflets (private property?) the school would have every right to call the police. Otherwise there is something that is called freedom of speech. I don't know what was in the leaflet so no comment on that.

4 if you deny the schools are in denial then in my opion you are in denial.


About point 6. What was said about you (I didn't even know you existed) that was untrue, where were you ridiculed and criticized for being a current pupil?


You ask what is wrong for standing up in what you believe in. Noting.

But.. I can agree with, debate them, laugh at or ridicule beliefs (think of the mohammed cartoons) when so inclined. We have that right. At the same time I'd like to point out that no one has bared any one of you for standing up for your beliefs.


I have commented on the non-issue of spelling and leave it at that.


The arguments brought forth sofar are so cogent that I am still wondering what would suffice so the concerned pupils won't perceive this as an attack on them.

So put your cards on the table please. Make a list of action points if you need.


About one on one talk, I don't mind talking with you Theo but I am not the person to do that since I've not been in SES nor St Vedast/St James and neither anyone of my family. I set up this BB a couple of years after I had made and collected a few webpages on SES and the book Secret Cult. if you want to convince parents then talk with any of them.
Last edited by mgormez on Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Gormez

Alban
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Postby Alban » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:04 am

teacher100 wrote:...I think personally whether Governors resign is a matter for their own conscience, I am certainly not going to be calling for anyone's resignation as the Governors have very little to do with the day to day running of the school. (as Mary mentioned). I think people need to realise that generally, and this is true of all schools, Governors have only been involved in policy matters, staffing and the running of the schools in the last 10 years. Previously Governors were more honorary in their role and really acted in an advisory capacity. As to their knowledge of what was happening in the school, they relied on the head teacher to tell them, and would be aware only of as little or as much as was passed on. This was totally normal.


So, Teacher, who holds responsibility in a case like this? The head teacher is and has always been answerable to the governors - no? Are you seeking to lay the blame solely on one man and one woman?

Also, could you back up your view of the roles and responsibilities of governors 20 years ago with facts? The reason I ask is that due to more recent legislation, it is true that governors have had to take a more active role, but it is not the same as suggesting that they were "more honorary in their role and really acted in an advisory capacity". If my time in St Vedast and the SES has taught me anything, it is that they are extremely good at presenting an opinion as a fait accomplice. So maybe you could furnish us with a few pointers to back up your statements.

Surely, the whole point of a board of governors in a school is (and has always been) the same as that of a company - i.e. they have responsibility for the organisation - the buck stops with them. As for not being involved in staffing, a board of governors has always had responsibility for recruiting the head of a school, and as such have always had a duty to monitor that person's performance. It is irresponsible not to seek other views and opinions of that person's abilities.

So, while the head teachers in this case are of course culpable, the governors hold ultimate responsibility.

teacher100 wrote:...I am afraid to say that I know of one case where a teacher has withdrawn their application for a post in the school after reading this website, so I think it is damaging the school.


To blame the website makes no sense at all. The posts on this board would not have happened if the governors had fully taken responsibility for their actions and the actions of staff they put in place. The inquiry could easily have been avoided and to be honest only highlighted issues that could easily have been pinpointed with a minimal of internal investigation.

Lets face it, the most damaging thing for the schools has been the inquiry itself. That resulted in far more negative publicity than could have been achieved by a simple forum. So if you want to accuse someone of damaging your schools, turn your head and look firmly at the governors and their inquiry, don't blame a number of ex-pupils for telling it how it was 20-30 years ago - all we wanted was closure, but came up against the same old arrogance that we did all those years ago.

teacher100 wrote:...If they had come to visit the school they would not have been able to reconcile what they saw and what they had read, but unfortunately it never got that far...


I wish people would stop using this argument - it just does not make any sense! We are talking about ingrained attitudes and indoctrination that could not possibly be picked up in a tiny snapshot of time. That's like trying to measure a party's performance in office, with only a party political broadcast to go on!

Reading this post back, I have picked up on the negative aspects of your post, which is not representative of the whole post, because you make some good points about the value of non-ses governors and teachers. However, most of us that have had the experiences that are shared on this forum, are extremely wary of the large numbers of people within the organisation that are happy to propagate the opinions of a few. So please try and understand our scepticism, I know it's a hard thing to do in your position, but if you could, you'd see that we are only attacking the things that harmed us - not the whole shooting-match.

BTW - there is no such thing as a little bit non selective, you are or you aren't. You may not be very stringent in your selection criteria, but that is a subject that should be discussed in another thread.

Alban

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Postby Alban » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:10 am

Sam Hyde wrote:...they are coming PARACHUTING with us cadets in 2 weeks time!..


Ha, I hope they're still not expected to wear their long skirts while doing this...conjures up images of Mary Poppins!

:fadein:

Alban

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a different guest
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Postby a different guest » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:22 am

bella wrote:I don't think they were saying the schools have a gender equity policy, ADG. They were saying there is a girls' climbing club, after you said there wasn't one.

The State school I attended didn't have a gender equity policy either. I'd sort of rather be able to use a wood lathe than bake a fruit log, but eh.


Shame you edited out the 'goalposts" comment _ I was about to say I would move them back.

As to climbing clubs - the Challengers seem to do all sorts of things and is part of the Duke of Endiburgh Award Scheme (which also includes stints of community service and other things). Meanwhile the boys do the DoE thing OR the cadets, and then have a separate dedicated Climbing Club which "runs training weekends in Wales, Scotland or the Peak District, and takes major expeditions to the Alps every two years."

And when I went to school they didn't have gender equity either! I spent several miserable years in primary school sewing classes. It's nice that times have changed.

I will look forward to the boys posting some of their scrapbook pages up - perhaps they've done one of their trip to the Alps?

james
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Postby james » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:02 am

The girls school also runs training events in scotland and wales, and also go's on a major alps trip every 2 years, or is supposed to anyway. The boys didn't get to go last year either due to staffing difficulties.

0X

ps
I could post my alps trip scrapbook, its digital, but im afraid it wont fit on here! I would tell you the website where the pictures are posted, but I can't remember what its called.
Im in a cult? You think? Don't worry the spaceships will be coming soon.

mgormez
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Postby mgormez » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:23 am

james wrote:I could post my alps trip scrapbook, its digital, but im afraid it wont fit on here! I would tell you the website where the pictures are posted, but I can't remember what its called.


If it is a single file, like PDF or DOC then mail it to me and I'll web it on this site on a neutral place. You retrain the rights on it of course and can say when you want it taken down again.
Mike Gormez

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bella
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Postby bella » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:59 pm

Shame you edited out the 'goalposts" comment _ I was about to say I would move them back.


If you moved them back, this conversation wouldn't go anywhere, since the climbing club thing crashed and burned. Better to stick with the boys' scrapbooking. I must say, I wasn't expecting the girls to have a climbing club either - damn Euro snobbery.

nilsabm
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Postby nilsabm » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:38 pm

Sam Hyde wrote:SECTION ATTACK

HELLLL YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Big up 239 Section 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BRRRRAPPPPPPP!!!!


Blimey Sam. Didn't have to make our own sound effects when we were in the unit! I actually enjoyed it myself. It was one area of school life that SES didn't have any influence on for us. Stayed on two years as senior cadet NCO after leaving ST V and helped unit transfer over to ST J. Glad the unit's still winning trophies. See the QM about some ammo though!

Also glad to see the girls now get to do some decent activities - makes an improvement on the hat-blocking and sewing that they had to do in our day.

N.

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Sam Hyde
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Postby Sam Hyde » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:51 pm

lol nice to hear from some veterains!!! Ammo still rationed, some things never change!

Sam xox
thats old now, like me, only 4 weeks to go!!!!!
"I've never let my schooling interfere with my education"

Alban
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Postby Alban » Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:30 pm

I hated the cadets - it seemed to me just another excuse for people to shout at you, except this time they were pretending to be soldiers rather than pretending to be teachers. I guess it's my aversion to men in suits (or uniform in this case) being given authority over me, when none is deserved (or earned).

On the other hand, I did think learning to shoot (at round targets, not people) was good fun, so it wasn't all bad.

Still...horses for courses!

Alban

sparks
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Postby sparks » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:45 am

Teacher 100,

Thank you for your postings and particuarly for some of your welcome and thoughtful observations about improving the schools' governance.

However I simply have to take issue with your extraordinary position on the Governors decision not to resign and on the historic and current role of governors.

you wrote...

teacher100 wrote:whether Governors resign is a matter for their own conscience, I am certainly not going to be calling for anyone's resignation as the Governors have very little to do with the day to day running of the school.


The Governors (then and now) are legally responsible for everything that happens at the school - Townend himself specifically made this point when he highlighted that the Governors appeared to have been very 'hands off'

If I (just as an example you understand) were to want to sue the school, it would be the Governors I would litigate against....it would be no good their saying 'its nothing to do with us mate'!

You went on to say...

"I think people need to realise that generally, and this is true of all schools, Governors have only been involved in policy matters, staffing and the running of the schools in the last 10 years. previously Governors were more honorary in their role and really acted in an advisory capacity. As to their knowledge of what was happening in the school, they relied on the head teacher to tell them, and would be aware only of as little or as much as was passed on. This was totally normal.


This is not, nor was it true of all schools. As a teacher from 1988 I can assure you that what you state is NOT my experience. Whilst is true that legislation around governance has led to a strengthening of the roles and responsibilities of governing bodies - your description of their role 10 years ago does not reflect reality at many schools. My wife, who was a school governor then, also confirms this.

Finally, I would like to challenge your assertion that the governors didnt know what was going on in St James at the time. I have just read the 'history of complaints' page on the PPIAG website ( http://www.stjamesinquiry.org/COMPLAINT ... _page.html ). I suggest that you do likewise. Then tell me whether you really think it plausible that the governors knew nothing about the mistreatement of pupils until they read the complaints on this forum in 2004.

So please, dont help the governors to evade taking responsibility for their failings - rather, encourage them to act quickly so that St James can move on. Besides, a few vacancies on the board would provide an oportunity to bring some non - ses and more independent new blood!

Anyway, you are most welcome to the forum - its good to have a current teacher on here.

Frodo
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Postby Frodo » Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:05 pm

Interesting to read this from Mary:

"Having been here for almost 7 weeks now I am beginning to appreciate the freedom of thought I was permitted at St James. I have begun to realise how lucky I was not to be forced into accepting anything as "The Only Way" and I am increasingly thankful for all the opportunities I was frequently given to enquire into any subject and to make up my own mind about the issues that affected me. "

That kinda sums up the SES approach. McLaren kicked the whole thing off (Andrew that is) because he had seen appalling injustices follow blind belief in doctrines whether political, moral, philosophical, religious or political. Leon carried it on in his own way, challenging received wisdom and accepted thought. Gurdjieff was a bit of a rebel - albeit a slightly nutty one - and was only useful to Leon's SES for a while. The Eastern philosophy as espoused by Shantananda Saraswati seemed to offer a non-dogmatic approach to freeing up thinking. There isn't a doctrine, much less a dogma. There are certain models that allow people to look at things differently and therefore possibly refresh one's view. But it's all open to question, discussion and challenge. Actually, I think that's encouraged.

Yeah, you can always find someone somewhere who said something a bit pompous or whatever but the ethos of SES is to avoid blind belief.

What happened at St James certainly needs to have been addressed and much occured that was appalling. But it's worth noting that SES is largely misrepresented in many of the posts here (gurus with wallets, condoning of sex with children based on some nutty idea of karma, sinister allignments with Nazi ideology, etc). Mike's conclusions (conclusions, yes, he never wavers) are based as he said on the Secret Cult book and a few websites, nothing more. I don't think there has been an objective, credible analysis of SES anywhere, at any time that has discovered a dark heart within it.

Well, I bet that's lit the blue touch paper!

Love,

Frodo

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Postby Jo-Anne Morgan » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:19 pm

"Having been here for almost 7 weeks now I am beginning to appreciate the freedom of thought I was permitted at St James. I have begun to realise how lucky I was not to be forced into accepting anything as "The Only Way" and I am increasingly thankful for all the opportunities I was frequently given to enquire into any subject and to make up my own mind about the issues that affected me. "

That kinda sums up the SES approach.


Not in my experience. I was in the SES for nearly 3 years and during the first year I would have agreed with that statement. Not now.

There isn't a doctrine, much less a dogma.


In my experience there is e.g. the assertion that reincarnation exists, this was put to us as 'the truth', no arguments. If you disagree you're wrong.

But it's all open to question, discussion and challenge. Actually, I think that's encouraged.


Not on your life. Challenge was actively discouraged after the first year. When I seriously challenged something I was told by the tutor to 'See me afterwards as you're holding up the rest of the group'. I couldn't believe it. It was like school. That's when doubts first started to set in. Then I found this website a few months ago which confirmed everything I was thinking myself and there was no going back. Not to mention the horror and disgust I felt at the experiences of those at the secondary schools. It was like something out of 'Tom Brown's Schooldays'. All that seemed to be missing was the school bully roasting boys in front of an open fire. I wouldn't even have put it past them to have condoned that.

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Postby mgormez » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:52 pm

Frodo wrote:Mike's conclusions (conclusions, yes, he never wavers) are based as he said on the Secret Cult book and a few websites, nothing more.


Well, that is not true any more. In reality it turned out to be much, much worse than I thought. I am not the one who used the word 'criminal' in respect to the St. Vedadst abuse, an independent person did, hired by the governors.. Especially the abuse at the girls' makes my stomach turn. It is bad enough to select a bride from your class but watching them shower and keeping a calander when they had their periods? Words don't suffice to express my disgust.

Mike
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