Our Campaign against urs, Parents THIS is what u want 2 hear

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
james
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Location: Leeds (currently in NZ)

Postby james » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:49 am

"you people are vampires, and your stories are stale."

But seriously, c'mon we seem to have slipped back into attempting to rip the current school to shreads. These things DO NOT happen there anymore, I was NEVER taught the "laws of manu". I have NEVER been told to marry an 8 year old. You get the picture, i don't want continuosly repeat myself.

daska
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:29 pm
Location: UK

Postby daska » Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:52 am

It's still relevant because simply by attending St James you are brought into contact with SES and it's teachings. Do you have some issue with finding out more about the texts than the out of context quotes or the diluted version that is presented in the schools and the early years of SES?

We weren't knowingly taught the laws of Manu either. It was fed insidiously, bit by bit, line by line, activity by activity. Why have you been taught that the ideal is one man one woman? Why did Boddy say he would suggest 'alternatives' to homosexuality? Why the emphasis on including 'obey' in the marriage ceremony? Why still include lessons on giving dinner parties but only to the girls? Why only teach the boys to select wine? Why do the 6th form girls still wear long skirts? Why are you still in separate buildings? etc etc etc

Has the sexism really disappeared? If yes then good. If not, is it not something that should be dealt with asap?

I can say from personal experience that if it has not been dealt with the personal problems which those who have gone before you have had to come to terms with, will be faced again by those going through the system at present. Perhaps in another 20 years time.

That is why what has happened in the past is relevant to the present. Simply your knowing purnamada, purnamadam etc is evidence that you are still being drip fed the doctrine.

It is to your credit that you have the courage to disagree publicly with some of the things that the school is doing whilst still defending what you perceive as its strengths.

Coralie
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Postby Coralie » Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:16 am

"Live in the present". That sentence makes shivers go down my spine. It reminds me of the way faults were pointed out to us and was a signal that things that have happened are of no importance to now. If they had been dealt with, then maybe that would be so, but all too often it was a way to put the door down and ignore it all. The shadow that has been cast by ignoring the past, lies in the present. Which brings me to my thanks to Daska. I don't know whether I have ever seen the Laws of Manu in print, but I do recognise them. Even though I thought I had ignored them and built my own foundations on stronger ground, I now realise how much of it had been put into my subconscious. I do not have the confidence to say what I want to and need to when something happens. I may know intellectualy I should be doing something, but a little voice says,"you can't speak emotionally". I don't believe I will be believed and until recently, I was quick to take a lot of the blame myself, even if I had absolutely no blame. I was always good at making excuses for other people - always harder on myself and still am. My present is away from the SES, but still overshadowed by it. I would like to thank Keir for his posts.You have managed to express my view as well in a way I have difficulty in doing. All I have ever wanted was to be heard, recognised and loved. I have through my postings received some pm's which have caused some healing. Thank you. :fadein:

james
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Location: Leeds (currently in NZ)

Postby james » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:02 am

Daska

I agree with some of your points, and thankyou for your comment on our bravery at both speaking against and for the school.

However I do not understand what is so bad about knowing a prayer?! It may be slightly nieve to say that there is somthing perfect in every situation, but its a good thing to try and look for, especialy when things get bad.

We were never taught "one man, one woman" in a philosophical sense, the current marrige ceremony in the UK, unless im mistaken, has the line "one man, one woman, for life." Does it not?

I do not have any issue with "finding out more about the texts" execpt I will read about the things I find interesting. Things that are obviously out of date views and practices, or are not practical in the modern western world I will simply drop as total c**p. Which I agree many are!

I have never been taught to select wine! I wish I had!

Looking back I do not think it was such a bad thing that we were in separate buildings, and anyway the 6th form boys & girls often go to the opposite school to do some subjects, but sombody at the school presently will be able to better tell you about that. Sam?

I certainly hope that in 20 years I will still have the good memories of the school i have now, and the friends I made there.

james

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ET
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Location: Gloucestershire
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Postby ET » Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:01 am

parent wrote:I asked the question much later...

.Parent - "it appeared to me that you were so happy everytime I collected you from school. Why did you not say anything?

Child - "I was so happy to see you and could not wait to get out of there"

Parent - "Why did you not say anything?"

Child - "I thought THIS is what school life is" and resigned myself to the fact.


Good God, I think I might have had this exact same conversation with my parents after leaving the school 17 years ago! I also totally recognise your comment about meal times - I often went without the food I wanted because we were not allowed to ask for what we wanted, we had to wait for another girl to notice we might need it and offer it to us. One of my female relatives who is still in the SES still does this - it can be a bit tricky at family meal times. Perhaps this particular little rule was unique to the girl's school? I too think it interesting that no current female pupils are posting on here.

nilsabm
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:31 pm

Postby nilsabm » Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:03 am

we seem to have slipped back into attempting to rip the current school to shreads


No James. That is not the objective here. The reminiscences of people on this site, I am afraid, are all too fresh in the telling. I sincerely hope you do have happy memories of your school days in 20 years time. But, as these posts demonstrate, not all are so fortunate.

More to the point, this forum is not specifically about St James.... Its about the SES, a world-wide organisation that has had a seriously negative impact on many peoples lives. Like it or not, The SES founded and administrates St James . If you feel uncomfortable about what peoples' experiences of the SES are, then don't complain about it here. Take it to those who matter... the governors. But this point has been iterated several times now.

I am glad to see that Sam has taken it on himself to get the school to address some of these issues. I wish the current pupils the best of luck in their efforts...

Zathura
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:05 pm

Postby Zathura » Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:28 am

sounds bad not good not good. How would you feel if Debenham made a public apology?

Maybe you could start a thread that goes into the statistics of the beatings. I think it warrents one

daska
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Location: UK

Postby daska » Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:50 pm

james wrote:However I do not understand what is so bad about knowing a prayer?! It may be slightly nieve to say that there is somthing perfect in every situation, but its a good thing to try and look for, especialy when things get bad.


Because bits and pieces of belief systems/religion are promoted out of context and the cultural aspects that gave rise to the teachings are not practised or relevant to the society in which they are being promoted. Christianity, Platonism, Stoicism and the Hindu Caste system etc etc etc are not easy bed fellows at any time, let alone in modern western society - hence the deep and lasting emotional confusion experienced by myself, Coralie etc.

james wrote:We were never taught "one man, one woman" in a philosophical sense, the current marrige ceremony in the UK, unless im mistaken, has the line "one man, one woman, for life." Does it not?


Sorry, can't find the quote, I think maybe it was Sam who said one man, one woman' was presented as 'the ideal'

yes the marriage ceremony says that but the opposite is true of the civil partnership

james wrote:I do not have any issue with "finding out more about the texts" execpt I will read about the things I find interesting. Things that are obviously out of date views and practices, or are not practical in the modern western world I will simply drop as total c**p. Which I agree many are!


But if you pick and choose which of the extracts of texts presented to you you examine futher then you won't pick up the complete context of what the SES is teaching. And as the SES controls your governors and through them the entire school ethos you will never understand the root causes of the damage that is done.

Am I right in thinking that a Happpy birthday is due you? Best wishes James, I hope you have a fantastic day and year coming up.

Daska

Planet
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Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:40 pm

Postby Planet » Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:15 pm

Zathura wrote:sounds bad not good not good. How would you feel if Debenham made a public apology?

Maybe you could start a thread that goes into the statistics of the beatings. I think it warrents one


I think it would be slightly macabre to produce a statistical analysis unless this is something that would particularly interest Zathura.

Debenham wouldn't I think apologise for anything judging by his apparent conviction that he has never knowingly done any wrong. On his retirement he was seen to be looking quite ill.
Last edited by Planet on Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sam Hyde
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Postby Sam Hyde » Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:26 pm

I swear its NOT james's BIRTHDAY!!! IF IT IS I HAVE FORGOTTEN!!! shit!

Well, I was referring to 1 man 1 woman in respect to the marital challenges. A minority of the SES teaching staff are still homophobic, as with much of the teaching, in 1 ear out the other. However many of our senior staff are not into he 'school' and have a much more open attitude. The other thing is that across the spectrum, the pause is dissolving into nothing. Many of our lessons do not begin with it, in my last few academic years the onus has been on just getting on with the lesson. At lunches, it is a travesty! Lol the boys sit down and start eating before the pause has even finished! NO ONE CARES!

Sam xox
thats old now, like me, only 4 weeks to go!!!!!
"I've never let my schooling interfere with my education"

daska
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Location: UK

Postby daska » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:13 pm

Great to hear it!

Can assure you that the pause is still alive and kicking in the junior schools. Parent, MM, care to back me up on this. Can't speak for silent lunches there, though I remember Arthur Farndell being particularly keen on them. And the rule in our day was that you had to wait to be offered food, I don't remember any rule about having to offer. He'd also dictate where we had to sit...

As I've tried to indicate before, the boys and girls schools were never directly comparable. The freedoms the boys got (IT, sailing etc) and the doctine were different to what we experienced, so being the cynical little bunny I am I have to say that I'm still waiting to be convinced.

And sorry, I must have misunderstood, James was usng the happy birthday emoticon on a different thread and I assumed it was a hint, perhaps it was aimed at someone else. If you don't mind I won't withdraw my wishes for a fantastic day and year, I'll just extend them to everyone...

Zathura
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:05 pm

Postby Zathura » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:25 pm

Planet's comment is really dumb just like her comment about spelling. No I'd actually rather not hear about boy's bare arses. Five yearolds. were you ever caned that you are making jokes about it!

No it was a serious post to Leon NOT Planet. I think if there is a reminder post of what went on 75 to 80 that was not registered by the inquiry we might remember why certain people are still so pissed off. This was the reasoning behind a statistics in the early days thread. This might get Debo to make an apology because CRUCIALLY HEY PRESTO the report did not actually have hardly ANYTHING to say about the first five years!!!
This is my reasoning Planet Far Away. Not for some sexual or death lust reason. Stay away from issues that don't concern you if you are going to take the piss. This is a St James kid thing. F..cker

ross nolan
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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:10 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

indoctrination by stealth

Postby ross nolan » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:32 pm

The on going debate about whether you are or are not being indoctrinated,thinking and speaking (posting) for yourself or merely echoing the 'correct' position in defence of the school seems to form the gist of this thread -- in between light relief (chit chat etc) occasionaly a piece of solid evidence for inculcating the fundamentalist hindu doctrines and the Erasmus 'colloquies' on serving others food, women's 'place' etc emerge.

Perhaps many of you are familiar with the well known English documentary series "7 UP" which follows the lives of a selected group of people from the age of 7 until (I think now ) 49 and on -- the basic preposition is that your basic character and worldview if not prospects for your later life are irrevocably set in place by the age of just seven .

The Jesuits saying goes "give me the child until the age of seven and after that nothing else matters ..... I will give you the man " (sic) -- anyone knowing someone brought up by a religious order will recognize the truth of that ; surely it was the purpose of establishing the SES day schools to have exactly that deep seated effect on their young charges and the anecdotes and testimonies of those who were subjected to the SES dogma so many years ago confirms this subtle but important fact .

Those who are now throwing off the effects of this childhood indoctrination are quite possibly the minority or the exception to those whose programming was more successful and pervasive who have yet to realize the damage ( perfect brainwashing would result in no "complainers" )

Only a 'de convert' to a cult can appreciate the loss of perspective that takes place when actually in it's clutches -- take A look at the cult awareness thread and ask yourself if it COULD apply to you -- ex moonie Steve Hassan in particular is worth listening to.
(see ABC radio national website as previously posted to listen to his interview on 'the spirit of things' with Rachel Cohn -- incidentally there is an upcoming series of programs on the Hindu religion,the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita etc website is close to www.abc.radionational.religionreport.net.au (try key words )

R
Skeptic

Planet
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Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:40 pm

Postby Planet » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:39 pm

Zathura wrote:Planet's comment is really dumb just like her comment about spelling. No I'd actually rather not hear about boy's bare arses. Five yearolds. were you ever caned that you are making jokes about it!


I was just wondering why you suggested such a thing or that such a thought could even enter someones mind. Unfortunately facts are painful. It happened to you and you can't go back in time. Thats a fact, painful or otherwise.

Noddy will never publically apologise thats for sure given his stance so far.

"Planet checks genetalia to see its still there, but is not sure it is". Assumption is always a bad thing.

As to taking the piss well I'm sorry, what can I say. Its a public board and if your going to feel hurt posting and getting replies or comments then don't.
Last edited by Planet on Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zathura
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Postby Zathura » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:22 pm

I think it would be slightly macabre to produce a statistical analysis unless this is something that would particularly interest Zathura

this is what you said.

When you say you are glad 'we' can get to you (me) who do you mean by we. And why would 'we' be trying to get to 'me'. I hope I am not starting a catfight. My impartial attitude is an intellectual construct that I find useful in deconstructing and broadening the dicussion about cults into a broader world view arena.the only thing I have done which in my view I think was bad and not broadminded was tell the kids to ignore the old geezers. this was meant for momentary effect to encourage the kids NOT as my own genuine feelings about the old boys and girls and their story. So I apologise for using inappropriate language and sentiment one level in that situation. But it was on one level and does not represent my own deeper feelings for the majority of older persons on the site. At all. This is important for me to say and I hope you take me seriously. The kids were being lambasted for being kids, for being young, for being cocky. They were being treated as if they were responsible for the school. They are not and are not in my opinion puppits being used by the school. I thought they should be given a fair hearing that was the reason for my one really innappropriate thread.

'playing with my emotional being' was yet another sarcastic coment

I think it is human to flinch when being obliquely reffered to as a sexual deviant by someone completely sleep talking.

i'm sorry to over react Planet but I felt very offended (for the first time) that you might think I got some perverse joy from the statistical thread idea. I get the feeling you weren't caned. I also don't like the fact that you came in with your comment when I felt I was having a serious and empathetic conversation with Leon. Mostly I felt more emotional than usual that you would even in ever so slight a way even think I got any delight or weird joy from the facts of these tales. It is the opposite. sometimes humour ever so slightly even as it was is at least to maybe only one person at a time quite genuinely offensive and to that one person at that time completely innapropriate. You were messing with my whole attitude. I don't take the tales of abuse lightly. to a very small degree I was in fact a victim. But I felt more a victim of ideology than punishment. I have encouraged the kids to not feel responsible to the older people here. They are not responsible and should be telling their own tale without pressure to modify their opinions. They ARE not indebted to us older ones. They could have gone to any school. I can't see why they shouldn't be allowed to speak their experience as it is now without any need to apologise or feel sorry for original people. A decent education should not be a thing a bunch of people have to fight for therefore I can't see why the kids should pretend they feel so sorry for the oroginal people. It's just political coreectness. I would prefer honest feelings, an honest apology and act in this way honestly when I expressed my temporary upset that you seemed to think I had private wierd reasons to suggest the course of action that I did. All this is a storm in a teacup. But I was not going to let such a comment or despoilment of my reputation on this site go unchecked

I hope you can forgive me for what in your view must have seemed like an over reaction but for me it was very imoprtant to defend myself against an implication of triviality at best and sexual deviance at worst.

I'm not even slightly considering stopping posting. I didn't say you should. If I get emotional it is usually of the moment. I'm not too temperamental a person.

Most people would at the very least 'protest' when it is implicated they have private designs to do with personal gratification over statistics of excessive beatings of children. I don't think I am abnormally non human. Also I don't want to speak for Leon but I don't think it even entered his mind that I was in some strange way emotionally masturbating over his stories. I found them gripping and compelling and recognised the location and person types he was reffering to which brought it very much to life. Infact for the first time in a while I started to feel a leaning to the 'militants' which is natural. I also read Jason Wolfe's moving testimony on the Anti S.E.S site. I am far from indifferent.
Last edited by Zathura on Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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