How much were our parents to blame?

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
TB
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Postby TB » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:44 pm

ADG,

so TB - am i to assume by your posts in another thread that you are so SES anal you have dropped this discussion?

Do you enocurage gender stereotypes?

why do you unable to beleive young males are emotionally vulnerable?

Why do you control your children so much? don't you want them to grow into healthy adults able to make their own decisions?


You need to lighten up a bit.

I have not dropped this topic, but I do not have the knowledge or experience to comment further, so I will research the topic and see what the statistics you quote say and why it might be caused. You might well be correct, but I do not consider you a credible expert in this area, on the basis of what you have offered as evidence.

I am not sure what you mean by encouraging gender stereotypes. Do you mean do I think males and females are different. If so then yes, I do think that there are biological differences in physiology and psychology. If you mean - do I try and enforce an ideological difference along social lines of gender, this I certainly do not consciously do. Gender stereotyping is not restricted to SES by the way, most facilities with separate toilets, most sporting events all show how deeply we discriminate between the genders.

I control my children because, given their ages, they are not capable of making certain decisions. This is based upon my judgement and I feel sure that you do not allow your children any control over certain decisions if you feel they do not have the capacity to decide for themselves. If I were to give my children complete freedom to make decisions from birth then I am sure they would not have the opportunity to grow into adults at all. I have to say ADG that the extreme examples I used in previous posts are so obvious you must be deliberately obtuse.

Simply put, children are dependent for many years upon their parents and need guidance for many things. Over time they learn, and their bodies and minds develop to a point of total independence (hopefully), but it does not happen in one day. Current science holds that our brains only cease development in our early 20's, the last part to develop controls our social awareness and consideration for others.

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a different guest
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Postby a different guest » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:02 am

You need to lighten up a bit.


Taking your own advice might not go astray either. :)

do I try and enforce an ideological difference along social lines of gender, this I certainly do not consciously do.


what about enforcing them thru your OWN beleifs in gender difference?



I control my children because, given their ages, they are not capable of making certain decisions.




Current science holds that our brains only cease development in our early 20's, the last part to develop controls our social awareness and consideration for others.


So your kids could be legally adults and you would still "control" them.

And I would dispute this "current science" - "current science" where? a credible link would not go astray.

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Free Thinker
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Postby Free Thinker » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:09 am

OK. Now I'm going to be a jerk and complain about words. TB - having separate facilities is NOT gender stereotyping. It is recognizing that most people of EITHER sex don't want to go to the bathroom or change, etc. with people of the opposite sex there, or have the chance of those people walking in on them. What is gender stereotyping is having men always take on certain duties that women are not allowed to do, while women do duties that men don't do. It is deciding that men know best and are the best decision-makers and that all women need to look up to and obey men. This is where the SES (and other cults or religious groups) differ from the culture of the society they reside in.

TB
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Postby TB » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:21 pm

ADG,

Quote:
You need to lighten up a bit.



Taking your own advice might not go astray either


Fair point, shall we deal and both lighten up?



Quote:
do I try and enforce an ideological difference along social lines of gender, this I certainly do not consciously do.


what about enforcing them thru your OWN beleifs in gender difference?



You are certainly correct, remember I only hold beliefs that I believe to be correct.

So your kids could be legally adults and you would still "control" them.


Its certainly possible that I might try to.

And I would dispute this "current science" - "current science" where? a credible link would not go astray.




I will look for some, you might try looking as well.

TB
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Postby TB » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:38 pm

FT,

TB - having separate facilities is NOT gender stereotyping


My mistake, sorry about that. Seperate toilets is gender discrimination. My understanding of gender stereotyping is that one ascribes behaviour not based upon biological differences between the genders. You have described some examples of gender sterotyping without defining what it is.

The SES has some rigid and olod fashioned isead of gender roles. Are you suggesting that what gender we are should not make any difference to what we should and can do? I ask the question because I believe that aside from biological differences between the genders, cultural differences have arisen, some based upon biology and some not. These have become part of what it is to be male or female. They change over time as culture evolves. I see gender stereotyping in many forms, SES offers their own version, but I see it in schools, business, social situations etc. Are you suggesting that stereotyping is wrong regardless of where and how it occurs, or just the version offered at the SES?

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Postby a different guest » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:33 pm

Are you suggesting that what gender we are should not make any difference to what we should and can do


Why should it make any difference? To say a person can be or do a certain thing is discrimination. As for separate toilets - how on EARTH is that gender discrimination. I am a girl and looky here - a female toilet. You are a boy and looky here - a male toilet. See? We BOTH have toilets. No discrimination there.

Many years ago dairy work was considered too hard for men. Seems churning butter would hurt them in some way. And in Wales women also worked in the coal mines.

These days there is nothing to hold back a woman from becoming a rocket scientest or a man to becoming a stay at home parent.

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Postby Free Thinker » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:16 am

TB wrote:The SES has some rigid and olod fashioned isead of gender roles. Are you suggesting that what gender we are should not make any difference to what we should and can do? I ask the question because I believe that aside from biological differences between the genders, cultural differences have arisen, some based upon biology and some not. These have become part of what it is to be male or female. They change over time as culture evolves. I see gender stereotyping in many forms, SES offers their own version, but I see it in schools, business, social situations etc. Are you suggesting that stereotyping is wrong regardless of where and how it occurs, or just the version offered at the SES?


I'm only discussing the SES here, and I'm stating that their beliefs regarding the "natural" order of men and women and the stereotypes that this brings about are wrong. I seem to see you consistently pointing out that situations in the SES occur elsewhere in the world. No one here is suggesting that they don't or that they aren't wrong there as well. But since this is an SES discussion board, we are discussing what happens in the SES. And I don't think I speak out of line if I say that the members of this forum believe that the unequal treatment of men and women in the SES is wrong.

I'm not taking as much issue with the practical effects of the beliefs (I was happy to let the big strong men chop up and haul away that heavy stump while I raked the leaves!) as I am with the beliefs themselves. (Women can never light the fire because men are the firecarriers and women can't do that. The husband is the head of the family and the woman should always acquiese to his decisions.)

I certainly hope you are not taking the "if you can't solve the world's problems, don't even try to solve one" stance, which it certainly sounds like you are from several posts. That does no one any good at any time or any place and it certainly does no good here.

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Postby a different guest » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:29 am

Women can never light the fire because men are the firecarriers and women can't do that.


Gawd - how ridiclous can it get???

In my family partner couldn't get a fire going if his life depended on it. Me? I lay a fire and only need one match.

nyah nyah :P

TB
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Postby TB » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:15 am

ADG,

As for separate toilets - how on EARTH is that gender discrimination. I am a girl and looky here - a female toilet. You are a boy and looky here - a male toilet. See? We BOTH have toilets. No discrimination there.


Lets substitute race and color instead of gender. Toilets for white people and different toilets for non-white people. This is considered discrimination in many parts of the world, but not to you. You have remarkable logic, could this be something peculiar to females?

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Postby Free Thinker » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:45 am

TB wrote:ADG,

As for separate toilets - how on EARTH is that gender discrimination. I am a girl and looky here - a female toilet. You are a boy and looky here - a male toilet. See? We BOTH have toilets. No discrimination there.


Lets substitute race and color instead of gender. Toilets for white people and different toilets for non-white people. This is considered discrimination in many parts of the world, but not to you. You have remarkable logic, could this be something peculiar to females?


The difference here is that the majority of BOTH men AND women prefer to have separate toilets/public restrooms, and most who don't prefer don't care. And it's legal. It's not legal to have toilets based on color/"race". There was no majority of both groups that wanted it that way. People of different colors don't have different genitals and a norm of sexual etiquette among all people of another color. People of a certain gender do.

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Postby a different guest » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:58 am

TB - just because the terms "sex discrimination" and "racial discrimination" share the word "dscrimination" - it does not mean you can compare them against each other. Sex and race are two ENTIRELY different things.



I am interested in what "beleifs" about "gender differences" you 'force" on your kids.

Perhaps you could give us some examples.

TB
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Postby TB » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:24 am

Hi ADG,

http://www.abanet.org/crimjust/juvjus/Adolescence.pdf

Here is a reference as promised discussing the development of the human brain where is discusses some functions maturing only in the early 20's. There are others I have seen and I am sure you are familiar enough with the internet to judge for yourself.

As for your other posts on discrimination, your usual mixture of brilliant insight and flawless logic are unanswerable in any way that will get through to you.

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Postby a different guest » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:13 am

TB wrote:As for your other posts on discrimination, your usual mixture of brilliant insight and flawless logic are unanswerable in any way that will get through to you.


oh what a NICE backhander from my board buddy.

Now stop being a lazy bugger and just give it the good ole college try and TRY to "get through" to me. With my intellect and insight surely I will be able to appreciate your superior male reasoning.

Snowman
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Postby Snowman » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:29 pm

a different guest wrote:
TB wrote:As for your other posts on discrimination, your usual mixture of brilliant insight and flawless logic are unanswerable in any way that will get through to you.


oh what a NICE backhander from my board buddy.

Now stop being a lazy bugger and just give it the good ole college try and TRY to "get through" to me. With my intellect and insight surely I will be able to appreciate your superior male reasoning.


Silence, woman! Or I'll make you wash my HUGE grey underpants.....again

Remember that you have no intellect and certainly no insight.

daska
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Postby daska » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:52 pm

washing other people's underpants is no laughing matter - I know, I was given the opportunity of 'serving' in this capacity on more than one occasion. I think I was supposed to be grateful, but in fact all it did was confirm that the SES senior ladies are lazy and rude

I do hope some of the ladies are reading these posts and I hope you felt really itchy next time you wore those 'undergarments' because I was too lazy to wash the soap out

tee hee

a small rebellion but another good memory


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