Should I send my daughter to this school?

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
Stacia

Should I send my daughter to this school?

Postby Stacia » Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:41 am

The girl's school was recommended to me by close friends and I recently attended an open day. The overall impression I received was charming - they were courteous, smiling and eager to direct me around the school. They answered probing questions with good cheer and at one point I discovered I was sipping a cup of tea I had not even requested. I was viewing it with the intention of sending my youngest daughter there, as she is not quite as academically active as her two siblings, but has a keen sense of right and wrong. She would benefit from the relatively varied curriculum as it would encourage her to develop within other areas. The school seemed to have the perfect atmosphere.
However, throughout my tour of the school, it all began to feel insincere. How can ten-year-olds be expected to concenrate on a single word while meditating, or even understand the full extent of the commitment they are making? All the girls were clearly close - but this appeared to be forced. In my opinion, one's personal space is important, especially on a day-to-day basis. There was something excessive and unnatural about the whole experience. I was therefore quite surprised by certain aspects of this site - the homophobic aspect of the philosophy taught, for example. These girls were very close- this shocked me even though my family is very open.
Have old girls suffered as much as some of the boys appear to have? Is the idea of having to be everyone's friend ever too much? This forum has shown me a darker dimension of the school and I am seriously reconsidering entrusting the care of my child to such an institution. The saintly surface is veiling a sinister past, which has deeply disturbed me.

rebel

Postby rebel » Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:59 am

Dear Stacia,

I have submitted a post elsewhere on the site of my own experiences in the early 1980's at the Boys School, and I can really only draw from this experience.

You mention that you daughter might not be as academically gifted as some other girls. I was not an academic acheiver while at St. James, but this picture certainly changed rather dramatically after I left. I have ascribed my academic failured to the atmosphere and academic practices of the Boys School at that time. I dont know if it is fair to generalise between the schools and over long periods of time. But there are some points that I think you might want to consider:

1. Seating arrangements: St. James Schools used to rank students in order of academic performance and then make them sit in that order at their desks. In my view this barbaric and humiliating practise that damages a childs perception of his own abilities and potential. While this might sound trivial, seating pupils in academic rank is absolutley humiliating for those who end up at the end of the row, particularly if they are potential high acheivers as I was. This sends very strong messages of what teachers expectations are to a pupil. This was a very demoralising experience for me at the time. If you send your daughter there, I would ask them to confirm whether or not this is still the practise.

2. Aspirations: You need to see what former pupils from the girls school have achieved in terms of setting and reaching career goals. I have absolutely no data on this and cant form an opinion. But it is what I would look at. There are a lot of posts on this forum suggesting that women are not encouraged into the professions and are encouraged to remain under the 'protection of men'. You need to check what the school is doing to actively promote career advancement. I think things must have changed somewhat since the bad old days of ankle-length skirts, but please check this.

3. Philosophy: Ask them to be explicit about associations with the SES. My parents were never told about links with the boys school and were shocked to find out about these links. Check what is taught in terms of philosophy and beleif and see whether or not you would want your daughter to taught in this way.

4. Discipline: Again, I dont know what goes in in the girls school today, but from the posts on this forum it sounds like there was a culture of fear in the past. My own view is that good behaviour should be maintained through a balenced combination of positive and negative reinforcement, and neither of these should run into extremes. Doing this exclusively through fear is evidently unhealthy in the long term.

St. James also has some good qualities that you wont find elsewhere (you must already have considered these since you are thinking of sending your daughter there). I am not trying to put you off - simply giving you some pointers.

Please let me know what you find out!

With best wishes,

'rebel'

Sarah

Postby Sarah » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:27 am

Anonymous wrote:Some things we were told in SES foundation group at the age of 16:

A woman should submit to her husband - she should be prepared to "enter his world" when they married

The perfect wife is one who serves unnoticed and who does not expect or look for thanks. A wife should meet her husbands needs before he even expresses them.

The only way for a woman to achieve self realisation (the ultimate goal of the philosphy teaching) is through serving her husband

The main reason why women are educated is so they can make good dinner party conversations.

Women are godesses.

Need I write more ......

In the words of Sandra:

YES the S.E.S (school of exceeding stupidity) IS SEXIST.


Stacia,
Does this answer your question?

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adrasteia
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Re: Should I send my daughter to this school?

Postby adrasteia » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:00 am

I'm not sure quite how 'up to date' these last two posts are:
I certainly have never seen the seating system 'at work', unless it is by the pupils choice (sitting on the back row with friends in order to muck around with greater ease for example!)
I'm not sure that the foundation girls are instructed quite in this manner, and I think that members of today are less blinkered and wholely devoted than in days of yore- more willing to put university and work first and to take things with large quantities of salt.

Stacia wrote:The girl's school was recommended to me by close friends and I recently attended an open day. The overall impression I received was charming - they were courteous, smiling and eager to direct me around the school. They answered probing questions with good cheer and at one point I discovered I was sipping a cup of tea I had not even requested.


Yup, St. James girls can serve tea like no-one's buisiness! They are very good at doing open days!...
But I think you were right to see it as a 'surface', as all open days must surely be. I was also picked on several occasions to show people round, they often asked, "What do you really think of the school?" And I would always answer as if selling a house- 'I love it', 'It really great', 'wouldn't be anywhere else' etc. etc.
I was never asked to lie, it was never even hinted at, but I felt that should I voice any doubts about the school, (I even told them that I liked school lunches- shameless!) I would be letting them down, or betraying them.
So yes, if the girls felt like I did, they will have been giving you the rose-tinted spectacles treatment! But it's good to support your school.

Stacia wrote:However, throughout my tour of the school, it all began to feel insincere. How can ten-year-olds be expected to concenrate on a single word while meditating, or even understand the full extent of the commitment they are making?


Yes, I think they introduce meditation too early. Most children don't actually meditate, except keen foundation group girls! I didn't know what I was commiting to at 10, but a secret word that you follow like a boat in your mind (my impression of the introductory talk anyway) was an irestistable image!

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:42 pm

don't go anywhere near the girl school till the 'obey' clause is ironed out. RESEARCH RESEARCH. The S.E.S encourages women to obey men. So does St James less obviously.

Guest

Birds eye view.

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:50 pm

I've just read your original message more clearly and I think your observations, every single one of them are spot on. I used to live above the junior schools in 1999 in Queensgate I also had a birds eye view of the apparant love around which was also rather forced.
Also that is where I know about the shouting problem from.
Being a late riser I had to sleep through inane teachers shouting almost every word.
There were only two teachers like this however. the rest were splendid and really loved the kids. One of these two shouting teachers has now
left the other should be sacked. He's a maniac.

Matt Stollar

sparkss

Considering St James Girls School

Postby sparkss » Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:31 am

Dear Stacia,

I found your observations interesting and similar to those of a friend of mine who recently also considered sending her daughter to St James. They were also in some ways eerily reminiscent of 20 years ago...

Stacia wrote: The overall impression I received was charming - they were courteous, smiling and eager to direct me around the school. They answered probing questions with good cheer and at one point I discovered I was sipping a cup of tea I had not even requested.


See my earlier post, extract copied below, to another concerned parent....

sparkss wrote:Dear Parent,

I personally would never send my son to St James, never, ever, ever.

I would just ask you to think about the following...

When we were being beaten, when we were miserable, when we yearned to escape, prospective parents on many occasions came to visit the school. We glowed, we smiled politely, we opened the doors, we asked intelligent questions in class and we gave our best. We were children, we wanted to please, we wanted to be loved.

Whatever decision you make, I hope that you never have to look your now grown child in the eye and say "I?m sorry, I was only trying to do what was best for you".

Listen to your child!


You commented..

Stacia wrote: I was therefore quite surprised by certain aspects of this site - the homophobic aspect of the philosophy taught, for example.


Not to mention sexist / misogynistic / racist (paradoxically)

Stacia wrote:
Have old girls suffered as much as some of the boys appear to have?


There have so far been fewer posting from former pupils at the girl's schools but I would point you to the postings made by Janine, Sarah, Tamsin (and others) under the "experiences of St Vadast / James" thread.

Reasons for you to be concerned don?t relate only to past abuse and an unwillingness to acknowledge that it happened. The attitude of the schools, the philosophy, the control of SES and its use of the schools as a recruiting ground are also crucial.

Please be in no doubt, you would be sending your child to an SES school and - as the SES publicly state - these schools are part of a new movement in spiritual education! You need to question what they mean by spiritual and whether you want your daughter to be a recipient of that new movement!

As a parent myself, I can assure you that I understand the difficulty of finding a school which even half meets the needs of your child, but I would repeat what a former pupil of the girls school said recently...it shook me!

She said..."I would rather murder my children than send them to that school"

StVSurvivor
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demystification

Postby StVSurvivor » Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:56 am

adrasteia wrote:
Stacia wrote:However, throughout my tour of the school, it all began to feel insincere. How can ten-year-olds be expected to concenrate on a single word while meditating, or even understand the full extent of the commitment they are making?


Yes, I think they introduce meditation too early. Most children don't actually meditate, except keen foundation group girls! I didn't know what I was commiting to at 10, but a secret word that you follow like a boat in your mind (my impression of the introductory talk anyway) was an irestistable image!


I was sent to a very bizarre SES meditation initiation ceremony at the age of 8. I had to bring an offering of a white handkerchief and a piece of fruit and was sent into a incense filled house where this 'holy' word was revealed to me. I had to promise never to repeat it to anybody. It was never clearly explained to me what was going on or what this strange practise was all about. I can think of absolutely no reason why this "secret word" or mantra should remain a secret any longer. The mantra is "Ram", or at least that's what it was in my day (late 70's) "Ram is the 7th incarnation of Vishnu and the central figure of the Ramayana epic...": http://www.sanatansociety.org/indian_ep ... na_ram.htm

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adrasteia
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Postby adrasteia » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:21 am

But not pronounced like the sheep!
R-ah-m!
There is a theory on why not to disclose it, but I can't remember it.
The ceremony to initiate you is similar today- there is symbolism associated with the different things, can't remember that either, but they aren't a completely random selection of items!

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Postby a different guest » Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:39 am

The schools are run by the SES. The core idealogy of the SES is inherently sexist. Most of the staff are SES members.

Draw your own conslusions if this is an ideal school to send a daughter ro.

StVSurvivor
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Postby StVSurvivor » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:16 pm

or a son - for the same reasons

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Postby a different guest » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:13 am

too true survivor - remiss of me not to add that myself.

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Re: demystification

Postby Daffy » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:07 am

StVSurvivor wrote:I was sent to a very bizarre SES meditation initiation ceremony at the age of 8. I had to bring an offering of a white handkerchief and a piece of fruit and was sent into a incense filled house where this 'holy' word was revealed to me. I had to promise never to repeat it to anybody. It was never clearly explained to me what was going on or what this strange practise was all about.

Yes, that's exactly what it was for me too - I think at the age of ten in my case.

There was no question about it at the time: meditation was as compulsory as turning up to school in the morning and we could not opt out.

They certainly didn't tell us that once 'signed up', we would be physically forced to meditate (or more precisely, sit still in a darkened room) for 15-20 minutes twice daily for the remaining 6-8 years of our 'education' at St James, or be caned for missing it. What kind of cretin thinks you can force someone to meditate? What kind of monster thinks it is right to force children to do so?

Is it still like this at St James? If it isn't compulsory, what subtle pressure is put on children to start? If they do start, can they stop at any time?

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Postby Shout » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:15 pm

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Last edited by Shout on Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tamsin
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some thoughts from an ex St James Girls' school pupil

Postby Tamsin » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:30 pm

Stacia.
From your post it is clear that you are putting a lot of effort into finding a school that is right for your daughter and an environment where she can thrive and fulfil her potential. With St James, or any school, it is important to look below the glossy surface presented at an open day and explore more of the fundamental approach to education and personal development.

The SES approach to gender roles are based on their interpretation of ancient indian texts and specifically the ' laws of manu' which set out the framework of society. Obviously this is far from the modern world which strives for equal opportunities and has systems to facilitate girls and women participating in all aspects of civil, social, political and military life. Although studies show that girls particularly benefit from single sex schools, the female role models at St James were hardly ambitious, to become wives and serve. This was not a future that I aspired to and it certainly didnt act as a motivator to learn, develop and think independently. Acceptable university studies were classics, english, law and medicine. There was no careers advice and litle encouragement for girls to think out-of-the-box about the types of jobs that they could be capable of doing.

I would just like to note that the key focus of St James was on two key aspects: the philosophy basis that so coloured the curriculum and the intensive academic approach to the exclusion of creative arts, modern languages, sports and more. A great weakness of the school was the narrowness of what is taught. Indeed, they still don' t think that ICT is of any use and the library is very limited. You mention that your daughter is not particularly academoc and presumably would therefore benefit from schooling that provides a full range of other options that could develop creativity or technical skills.

Perhaps the school has changed its policy, but in my time it used to apply the Oxford and Cambridge exams, which is out of sync with most other schools in London which would follow the London exam system. This means that transferring in and out of St James would entail quite an adjustment in class content and study styles which can be particularly disruptive.

These are all points that you may want to think about when coming to a decision.

Finally, on a personal note, I don' t have children myself but would never recommend to a friend that they send their child to the school. Although much has changed and the school has moved on from the appalling roots, I don' t have confidence in the ability of the school governors and administrators to view the school without the ideological glasses of SES. St James and St Vedast patently failed several generations of children.

Good luck in finding a good place for your daughter. Tamsin


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