Hi Bruce,
I wondered if I could ask about your posting in more detail. The details are a bit arcane so a personal 'off-list' discussion would be good. I want to make sense of something from the bad old days and I think you might be able to help. Would it be OK to correspond by email or on some other list where we dont bore people?
best wishes,
rebel
EXPERIENCES AT ST. VEDAST (now St. James) AND THE S.E.S
Reply to Wilfred and 'Parent'
Dear Wilfred and other parent,
Thank you for your postings and the questions that you raise.
I am not in a position to answer your questions regarding the Inquiry; I suggest that you ask the Head teacher all of the questions directly. I suspect though that the terms of the enquiry are drawn to a) limit findings to a period far enough in the past to avoid any implications for the schools as they are today and, b) to avoid addressing the role of the SES then and now in the schools. This has long been an area of great contention and conflict between parents and the school. I doubt they want the enquiry to be framed so as to highlight this.
The ?researcher? has provided some answers to questions about St James SES links. I would be happy to add to this shortly. However, I would like to point out that the use of the term ?links? assumes a connection of some sort. St James School and the other Schools are actually operations and institutions of the SES ? the approach, philosophy, belief systems, outlook on the world, teaching, whatever are all SES. St James and the SES are much more than just ?linked?.
You may be aware that the SES and St James and St Vedast Schools went through a ?difficult time? in 1983 following negative press coverage. This led, amongst other things, to a relatively large number of pupils being withdrawn from the schools (particularly St Vedast ? which eventually closed). I mention this history for two reasons. First, because the setting up of the current inquiry needs to be understood in the context of the SES?s and St James? understandable fear of pupil withdrawals. Second, because one of the major complaints of parents (and others) at the time was the secrecy of the SES. Some parents maintained that they were either completely unaware that their children were attending SES schools, or that SES had only been mentioned with regard to who owned the school premises.
I had understood that both SES and St James were now slightly more transparent. I was therefore disturbed at the thrust of many of your questions.
Wilfred, you mentioned that you are a parent of a child at the Senior boys school. I don?t know whether your child was enrolled before or after the inspection by the Independent Schools Inspectorate during the first week of February this year, however I would draw your attention to the following from their report. The full text of the report is available at http://www.isinspect.org.uk/reports/2004/1096_04.htm
3.2 Leon MacLaren, founder of the School of Economic Science (SES), which offered adult courses in economics and philosophy, set up the school in 1975. The SES courses were designed to teach students how to embody principles of justice and truth in their lives, drawing on transcendental meditation and the wisdom underlying all philosophies and religions. The school was established originally for primary age pupils at the request of parent members of the SES. Most pupils from the junior boys? school continue into the senior school at age 10, augmented at age 11 by about 20 boys each year from the local area mostly from maintained primary schools. Four or five pupils each year enter at age 13.
3.3 All junior school pupils may automatically enter the senior school. External applicants sit tests in English, mathematics and verbal reasoning. The headmaster interviews boys and their parents to ensure that they understand and accept the school?s philosophy and are in tune with it. The profile of pupil ability is quite wide. The results of tests at 11 indicate that the overall level is slightly above average but with few academic high-flyers. The school identifies 60 pupils as requiring some special provision and five have formal statements of special educational need. The nearest benchmark for comparison is therefore the average for all maintained secondary schools nationally, though the school should achieve slightly better than that. Of the 28 pupils from families in which English is not the first language, three receive additional language support.
3.4 The school aims to introduce pupils to the principles of spiritual knowledge, knowledge about the universe, man and the individual?s place in it, and to release their inner knowledge and understanding. Pupils are reminded of the three-fold duty: to remember the Creator, to live according to the underlying laws of the universe and to find the way back to God. The school provides disciplined practice in spiritual, moral and physical fields, including training in appropriate skills. The school aspires to attain these aims by a highly distinctive ethos that embraces all religions and encourages all to develop their particular talents.
Is any of this news to you?
From 3.3 - ?The headmaster interviews boys and their parents to ensure that they understand and accept the school?s philosophy and are in tune with it?
This is sufficiently vague and when taken out of context of the paragraph that follows (3.4) could mean anything - but what was your experience when enrolling your child?
And to PARENT
Indeed they do?.the information about this is ?out there? but you wouldn?t exactly stumble across it unless you had cause to spend much time searching for it.
What worries me about both your and Wilfred?s posts is they are so reminiscent of concerns raised 20 years ago. I fear that lessons from then have still not been learned. Its largely up to parents to decide the education that is most appropriate for their children, in doing so you are making decisions based on the information that is available to you. It is the responsibility of the school to ensure that it provides accurate, full and accessible information. Has it? If it has and you are clear about the education your child will receive - then fine. Your questions on this forum indicate otherwise. Unfortunately St James / SES have a history of secrecy (or as they put it ?not seeking publicity?). They naturally talk up what they are comfortable to share, but is that the whole picture?
You may also be interested to learn the following:
In the summer of 1983 the School wrote to parents at the time to reassure them that?..
?We are reviewing our prospectus and other literature to ensure that our relationship with the School of Economic Science is fully acknowledge and that all aspect of our education are explained?
In response to parents? allegations of being kept in the dark about the nature of the SES/St James/St Vedast relationship, the headmaster of one of the schools at the time said?.
?When parents come here I speak about the links the day school has with The School of Economic Science. The extent to which this link is heard and recognised will depend really on the extent to which I discuss it and it varies considerably. I do say that this building belongs to the School of Economic Science?
Further challenged, he went on?
?Its not a deception, whether its touched upon, and it may seem to be in passing, or whether its discussed more fully depends entirely on what sort of interest there appears to be at the interview?.?
I hope this has been helpful with regards to both your postings. However if you would like to talk with me away from the forum please feel free to email me or send me a private message through the forum.
Regards
Thank you for your postings and the questions that you raise.
wilfred wrote:Reading all the correspondence here and sites relating to the SES leaves me with many questions. Perhaps some of you or even current teaching and administrative staff could help answer them.
I am not in a position to answer your questions regarding the Inquiry; I suggest that you ask the Head teacher all of the questions directly. I suspect though that the terms of the enquiry are drawn to a) limit findings to a period far enough in the past to avoid any implications for the schools as they are today and, b) to avoid addressing the role of the SES then and now in the schools. This has long been an area of great contention and conflict between parents and the school. I doubt they want the enquiry to be framed so as to highlight this.
The ?researcher? has provided some answers to questions about St James SES links. I would be happy to add to this shortly. However, I would like to point out that the use of the term ?links? assumes a connection of some sort. St James School and the other Schools are actually operations and institutions of the SES ? the approach, philosophy, belief systems, outlook on the world, teaching, whatever are all SES. St James and the SES are much more than just ?linked?.
You may be aware that the SES and St James and St Vedast Schools went through a ?difficult time? in 1983 following negative press coverage. This led, amongst other things, to a relatively large number of pupils being withdrawn from the schools (particularly St Vedast ? which eventually closed). I mention this history for two reasons. First, because the setting up of the current inquiry needs to be understood in the context of the SES?s and St James? understandable fear of pupil withdrawals. Second, because one of the major complaints of parents (and others) at the time was the secrecy of the SES. Some parents maintained that they were either completely unaware that their children were attending SES schools, or that SES had only been mentioned with regard to who owned the school premises.
I had understood that both SES and St James were now slightly more transparent. I was therefore disturbed at the thrust of many of your questions.
Wilfred, you mentioned that you are a parent of a child at the Senior boys school. I don?t know whether your child was enrolled before or after the inspection by the Independent Schools Inspectorate during the first week of February this year, however I would draw your attention to the following from their report. The full text of the report is available at http://www.isinspect.org.uk/reports/2004/1096_04.htm
3.2 Leon MacLaren, founder of the School of Economic Science (SES), which offered adult courses in economics and philosophy, set up the school in 1975. The SES courses were designed to teach students how to embody principles of justice and truth in their lives, drawing on transcendental meditation and the wisdom underlying all philosophies and religions. The school was established originally for primary age pupils at the request of parent members of the SES. Most pupils from the junior boys? school continue into the senior school at age 10, augmented at age 11 by about 20 boys each year from the local area mostly from maintained primary schools. Four or five pupils each year enter at age 13.
3.3 All junior school pupils may automatically enter the senior school. External applicants sit tests in English, mathematics and verbal reasoning. The headmaster interviews boys and their parents to ensure that they understand and accept the school?s philosophy and are in tune with it. The profile of pupil ability is quite wide. The results of tests at 11 indicate that the overall level is slightly above average but with few academic high-flyers. The school identifies 60 pupils as requiring some special provision and five have formal statements of special educational need. The nearest benchmark for comparison is therefore the average for all maintained secondary schools nationally, though the school should achieve slightly better than that. Of the 28 pupils from families in which English is not the first language, three receive additional language support.
3.4 The school aims to introduce pupils to the principles of spiritual knowledge, knowledge about the universe, man and the individual?s place in it, and to release their inner knowledge and understanding. Pupils are reminded of the three-fold duty: to remember the Creator, to live according to the underlying laws of the universe and to find the way back to God. The school provides disciplined practice in spiritual, moral and physical fields, including training in appropriate skills. The school aspires to attain these aims by a highly distinctive ethos that embraces all religions and encourages all to develop their particular talents.
Is any of this news to you?
From 3.3 - ?The headmaster interviews boys and their parents to ensure that they understand and accept the school?s philosophy and are in tune with it?
This is sufficiently vague and when taken out of context of the paragraph that follows (3.4) could mean anything - but what was your experience when enrolling your child?
And to PARENT
Parent wrote:I am a junior school parent and now very deeply concerned. ??.
What I did not know though is that this SES (whoever they are) actually control the framework of the school.
Indeed they do?.the information about this is ?out there? but you wouldn?t exactly stumble across it unless you had cause to spend much time searching for it.
What worries me about both your and Wilfred?s posts is they are so reminiscent of concerns raised 20 years ago. I fear that lessons from then have still not been learned. Its largely up to parents to decide the education that is most appropriate for their children, in doing so you are making decisions based on the information that is available to you. It is the responsibility of the school to ensure that it provides accurate, full and accessible information. Has it? If it has and you are clear about the education your child will receive - then fine. Your questions on this forum indicate otherwise. Unfortunately St James / SES have a history of secrecy (or as they put it ?not seeking publicity?). They naturally talk up what they are comfortable to share, but is that the whole picture?
You may also be interested to learn the following:
In the summer of 1983 the School wrote to parents at the time to reassure them that?..
?We are reviewing our prospectus and other literature to ensure that our relationship with the School of Economic Science is fully acknowledge and that all aspect of our education are explained?
In response to parents? allegations of being kept in the dark about the nature of the SES/St James/St Vedast relationship, the headmaster of one of the schools at the time said?.
?When parents come here I speak about the links the day school has with The School of Economic Science. The extent to which this link is heard and recognised will depend really on the extent to which I discuss it and it varies considerably. I do say that this building belongs to the School of Economic Science?
Further challenged, he went on?
?Its not a deception, whether its touched upon, and it may seem to be in passing, or whether its discussed more fully depends entirely on what sort of interest there appears to be at the interview?.?
I hope this has been helpful with regards to both your postings. However if you would like to talk with me away from the forum please feel free to email me or send me a private message through the forum.
Regards
-
leonm
I to am very surprised that some parents have no idea about SES it's history what it stands for or its involvement in the schools. Are they not intrigued that their children have to 'pause' and chant indian mantras with their eyes shut at the end of every lesson? Why are people happy to slave away working for free? I suppose we take schools for granted, we assume they are regulated and controlled. However SES 'is' a cult, it had a leader, an indian guru and a hierarchy. It grew out of Gurdjieff and to a lesser extend Ouspensky.
All parents should be invited onto an SES course so they can see the guiding principles behind the schools. It is disingenuous to not make the link with SES completely transparent. I feel many prospective parents would find them alarming. I know I would. Their axioms of belief are laughable in their confused obsfucation, and are treated as fact. One would naturally expect a high level of debate and discourse in a philosophy class, however one finds that persistant questioning is not tolerated, the feeling is of being in a fundamentalist religious group.
All parents should be invited onto an SES course so they can see the guiding principles behind the schools. It is disingenuous to not make the link with SES completely transparent. I feel many prospective parents would find them alarming. I know I would. Their axioms of belief are laughable in their confused obsfucation, and are treated as fact. One would naturally expect a high level of debate and discourse in a philosophy class, however one finds that persistant questioning is not tolerated, the feeling is of being in a fundamentalist religious group.
reply to Sparks and Leon M
Thanks to both for your responses...
Yes, you are right, the links to the SES are all there when one looks for them. It is only my fault for not looking deeper. But these links are not made clear during meetings and interviews with the school before enrolement nor in their literature.
The links with the SES have come as a complete shock to me.
What percentage of parents are in the same boat ?. Is there a way of finding out?.
Is it not possible to cleary identify within the curriculum an SES stream of Philosophy and teaching etc...and have these as an optional attendance for students. This would be a simple solution that would minimise student departures, allow the school to clearly articulate its links to the SES and to provide a balanced education, which surely must be in its heart somewhere?
Wilfred
Yes, you are right, the links to the SES are all there when one looks for them. It is only my fault for not looking deeper. But these links are not made clear during meetings and interviews with the school before enrolement nor in their literature.
The links with the SES have come as a complete shock to me.
What percentage of parents are in the same boat ?. Is there a way of finding out?.
Is it not possible to cleary identify within the curriculum an SES stream of Philosophy and teaching etc...and have these as an optional attendance for students. This would be a simple solution that would minimise student departures, allow the school to clearly articulate its links to the SES and to provide a balanced education, which surely must be in its heart somewhere?
Wilfred
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StVSurvivor
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:04 pm
Re: reply to Sparks and Leon M
wilfred wrote:Yes, you are right, the links to the SES are all there when one looks for them. It is only my fault for not looking deeper. But these links are not made clear during meetings and interviews with the school before enrolement nor in their literature. The links with the SES have come as a complete shock to me.
sparks wrote:I would like to point out that the use of the term ?links? assumes a connection of some sort. St James School and the other Schools are actually operations and institutions of the SES ? the approach, philosophy, belief systems, outlook on the world, teaching, whatever are all SES. St James and the SES are much more than just ?linked?.
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a different guest
- Posts: 620
- Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
- Location: Australia
SES members are required to clean facilities, act as tutors, be teamakers, ALL sorts of things as part of their normal duties as SES members. At week long "retreats" they get up at 4am and aside from furthering their appreciation of Mozart and Shakespeare, will also be required to do maintenance work on the building they are staying in.
Reply to Sparks
Thanks for the link to the Independent Schools Inspection report..
It was telling to read that "Library facilities and the provision of information and communication technology (ICT) and audio-visual resources are unsatisfactory. In some respects, lack of resources inhibits pupils? growth as independent learners.".
Could this be seen as an intentional strategy?
Wilfred
It was telling to read that "Library facilities and the provision of information and communication technology (ICT) and audio-visual resources are unsatisfactory. In some respects, lack of resources inhibits pupils? growth as independent learners.".
Could this be seen as an intentional strategy?
Wilfred
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a different guest
- Posts: 620
- Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
- Location: Australia
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concerned parent
I am the prospective parent who posted my concerns before. I have to say that I have always been completely aware of the links between the SES and the school, ever since I started looking at the school as a possibility for my son.
As I mentioned then, I am a practising (Tibetan) Buddhist. This is irrelevant to this discussion except for one point; I am very aware that it would be just as easy to level charges of 'cult' and 'secrecy' at my own 'organisation' - except that we are regarded as a religion, and also regarded as reasonably mainstream and benevolent. However we also own properties - including an entire Scottish island,- people who wish to, spend a LOT of time on residential retreats - years in some cases, and many others give their time to all aspects of running and maintaining our properties, and yet others run and attend introductory courses, and meditations etc etc.... Of course, we are quite transparent about all this; but only in one sense. It simply isn't possible for someone who attends a few introductory talks and courses to have any idea of the sort of commitment and values that MIGHT develop in an individual who finds in himself the call towards -well, call it what you wish, oneness, perfection, whatever. This can be talked about by anyone, but it cannot be understood or experienced by talking, so we tend not to... For myself this makes the way that the SES apparently presents their material to the public a little more understandable. I am not saying this IS the reason as I have no idea if it is, but I would not find it remarkable if it is.
I can see that parents who have found this board may be shocked and worried, but why are you not asking your children about what they see is going on? Are THEY happy? Why not ask yourself if you are happy with their education and emotional soundness? Or ask the teachers at the school about specifics; one has offered to provide any help she can. THIS is a large part of what apparently did not happen with those children who suffered abuse. THIS is a large part of the role of a parent, isn't it? The answer is not in speculation about the SES. This board cannot provide the sort of answers that *parents* need, and I don't think that any of its contributors would say that it can. This discussion can go round in circles forever otherwise. The aims of those who seek acknowledgement for past abuse and those who seek present clarification are not necessarily the same. To be a bit zen about it, even the aims of those with the same aims are not the same, as recent postings have shown!
As I mentioned then, I am a practising (Tibetan) Buddhist. This is irrelevant to this discussion except for one point; I am very aware that it would be just as easy to level charges of 'cult' and 'secrecy' at my own 'organisation' - except that we are regarded as a religion, and also regarded as reasonably mainstream and benevolent. However we also own properties - including an entire Scottish island,- people who wish to, spend a LOT of time on residential retreats - years in some cases, and many others give their time to all aspects of running and maintaining our properties, and yet others run and attend introductory courses, and meditations etc etc.... Of course, we are quite transparent about all this; but only in one sense. It simply isn't possible for someone who attends a few introductory talks and courses to have any idea of the sort of commitment and values that MIGHT develop in an individual who finds in himself the call towards -well, call it what you wish, oneness, perfection, whatever. This can be talked about by anyone, but it cannot be understood or experienced by talking, so we tend not to... For myself this makes the way that the SES apparently presents their material to the public a little more understandable. I am not saying this IS the reason as I have no idea if it is, but I would not find it remarkable if it is.
I can see that parents who have found this board may be shocked and worried, but why are you not asking your children about what they see is going on? Are THEY happy? Why not ask yourself if you are happy with their education and emotional soundness? Or ask the teachers at the school about specifics; one has offered to provide any help she can. THIS is a large part of what apparently did not happen with those children who suffered abuse. THIS is a large part of the role of a parent, isn't it? The answer is not in speculation about the SES. This board cannot provide the sort of answers that *parents* need, and I don't think that any of its contributors would say that it can. This discussion can go round in circles forever otherwise. The aims of those who seek acknowledgement for past abuse and those who seek present clarification are not necessarily the same. To be a bit zen about it, even the aims of those with the same aims are not the same, as recent postings have shown!
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StVSurvivor
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:04 pm
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Parent
Reply to Wilfred (another parent)
Hi Wilfred,
I think you have come up with a brilliant suggestion.
Although I might personally still be withdrawing my child from school, it would be enormously helpful if the schools introduced philosophy, sanskrit, meditation et al as an OPTIONAL subject.
I for one DO NOT want my child listening to philosophy lectures. I want my child to LIVE TO THE FULL and explore the philosophy of LIFE. My child can then choose at the age of 18 wheteher he/she wants a Philosophical direction.
I want my child to ask questions and NOT be provided with subtle/sub concious information that provides answers even before the questions are asked.
YES, if the SES stuff is an OPTIONAL EXTRA then the school gets to be transparent and the parents get to know and CHOOSE.
No doubt all SES members kids might choose the optional lessons whilst non-SES parents get to make a balanced and INFORMED decision.
I truly think that you have a very valuable suggestion there Wilfred.
Best Wishes
I think you have come up with a brilliant suggestion.
Although I might personally still be withdrawing my child from school, it would be enormously helpful if the schools introduced philosophy, sanskrit, meditation et al as an OPTIONAL subject.
I for one DO NOT want my child listening to philosophy lectures. I want my child to LIVE TO THE FULL and explore the philosophy of LIFE. My child can then choose at the age of 18 wheteher he/she wants a Philosophical direction.
I want my child to ask questions and NOT be provided with subtle/sub concious information that provides answers even before the questions are asked.
YES, if the SES stuff is an OPTIONAL EXTRA then the school gets to be transparent and the parents get to know and CHOOSE.
No doubt all SES members kids might choose the optional lessons whilst non-SES parents get to make a balanced and INFORMED decision.
I truly think that you have a very valuable suggestion there Wilfred.
Best Wishes
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Antises
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Antises
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the ether
Experts with experience in child-abuse cases cite that the effects of abuse are the most serious when the abuse occurs between the ages of 4 - 9. It is well documented that often people are not able to deal with it until they are much older - hence the reason why all of these accounts have taken so long to finally come to light.
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