<delete>

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
Free
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:30 pm

<delete>

Postby Free » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:08 pm

<delete>
Last edited by Free on Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby stiltrubld » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:50 am

deleted
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

bluegreen
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:42 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby bluegreen » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:59 pm

I thought of the same scene.
St James Girls School 1977-1981

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby stiltrubld » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:06 pm

I came accross this today on one of my circular emails, and I just thought what if an organisation sought to encourage 'negative visualisation's' in certain individuals or groups of individuals, in order to suit their purposes......

'From John Perkins’ extraordinary book Psychonavigations we read:

“Use visualization in a positive way; be aware throughout the day of the many times you visualize and take control of these; expunge your negative visions mercilessly and concentrate on positive ones.

“We all visualize frequently. In fact, prior to doing almost anything, we visualize it. Before your hand reaches for a pencil, your mind visualizes the event. You see your hand reaching out and taking the pencil, then you do it. We have all experienced the passive movements into another stage of consciousness referred to as “day-dreaming.” Visualization, unlike daydreaming, is active. It can be controlled, and when it is, the process is highly creative.

“Not surprising, visualization is a key to psychonavigation. It does not have to include more than one of the senses; however, the more senses that are involved, the more powerful it will be. When Julio and I meditated on the slopes of Pinchincha, he taught me to incorporate smell, taste, sound, and touch into my visualizations. These lessons have proven extremely helpful during psychonavigation.

“Visualization must always be combined with a positive attitude. When confronted with a situation, some of us tend to emphasize the negative. We may have established an unfortunate pattern of visualizing outcomes that are counterproductive to our goals or interests. Once these are fixed in our minds, we may focus on them and mull them over, worrying and fretting. We may wake up in the middle of the night, overcome with anxiety and ‘stressed out.’ Our bodies, minds, and spirits can be affected. All this help reinforces and increases the momentum of the negative. Visualizing ways in which a situation may deteriorate gives energy to the negative. Ironically, we can set ourselves up, helping to assure that our worst fears will be realized.

“The best lawyers exploit such negative visualization. An attorney friend of mine once spelled this out clearly when he told me, ‘Half the battle is won the minute an adversary starts visualizing what life will be like after he loses. I’ve got him as soon as he allows the negative to invade his feelings. My first—and perhaps most important—job is to trigger his negative visions.’

“Such negatives must be swept from our minds. Expunge them mercilessly. Do not let people use you this way, and do not talk yourself into your own traps. Take control of your visualizations. See positive results that turn the negatives around. Have faith, and visualize the outcome you desire.

“Visualization can be a highly effective tool. Take control of it; use it for positive results.” '


I am not sure if the above is really relevant but I suppose I was thinking that people don't get asked to leave the SES (since Leon Maclaren's day as far as I know anyway - well I was once told if I didn't like it I should leave, related to the dress code, but I didn't take any notice and the person concerned was very sweet about it afterwards) but if you question any of the 'Teaching'/'material', practices, attitudes or internal contradictions and indeed the past, you simply end up leaving - due to a build up of 'negative' thoughts perhaps. There seems to be no way to effect real change, and even though people are not actually asked to leave, they find it hard to stay, unless you either accept or at least don't reject the ideas and ways of doing things that are already established in the organisation. It means that there is no room for any other 'visualistions' of how the organisation may develop. Change seems to be very slow and fairly minimal.
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby stiltrubld » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:53 am

I came accross the following in a book about the Gurdjieff Work by Kathleen Riordan Speeth:

"The role of physical labour in the work: '....efforts made up to and beyond the point of exhaustion may permit access to a special reservoir of enery which Gurdjieff called the "larger accumulator," as contrasted with the small, peripheral reservoirs of energy that are ordinarily available to draw upon....."

All the time I was in 'philosophy' in SES I had no idea that this may be the basis of the long days with a certain amount of 'manual labour' (not enough to exhaust on its own these days mind you!). Now I am beginning to understand why people were pushed beyond their limits which used to happen sometimes, for example in the kitchen, I remember being 'caterer' during one residential week (for which no proper training is provided - is this another Gurdjieff assumption - that people can do anything??) and some on the team I was also IC for during a session were exhausted but I would not force them to continue so I let them go to have a rest (I didn't care if dinner was a few minutes late, which it wasn't, but exact timing did seem to be such an issue!), I just remember getting a sense that this was not the 'done' thing, and I stated in a meeting after this event that this pushing beyond endurance would not happen on my watch. Anyway, I was never told why people were pushed to keep going and I wish I had known what it was all about. Then you would have a choice about participating and know what the purpose was. In any case we were supposed to be learning about 'unity' not Gurdjieff! That's what I was always led to believe anyway. This is the problem with a mishmash of ideas and no real transparent ongoing assessment of what the source is of the practices and material and why it is being used.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby Tootsie » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:45 am

I washed thousands of dishes during residentials and it had nothing to do with Gurdjieff work. It was simply cheap labour, with the idea that we were serving the absolute, whatever that means. I wish I could get people to work for nothing in my business by telling them they were serving the absolute, as well as making me very rich!

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby Tootsie » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:13 am

Doing second line work in school is a bit like Tom Sawyer and the fence, where he gets all the boys to paint the fence.

“No-no-I reckon it wouldn’t hardly do, Ben. You see, Aunt Polly’s awful particular about this fence - right here on the street, you know - but if it was the back fence, I wouldn’t mind, and she wouldn’t. Yes, she’s awful particular about this fence; it’s got to be done very careful; I recon there ain’t one boy in a thousand, maybe two thousand, that can do it the way it’s got to be done.”

“No-is that so? Oh, come now - lemme try. Only just a little - I’d let you, if you was me, Tom.”

“Ben, I’d like to, honest injun; but Aunt Polly - well, Jim wanted to do it, but she wouldn’t let him; Sid wanted to do it, and she wouldn’t let Sid. Now, don’t you see how I’ fixed? If you was to tackle this fence and anything was to happen to it --”

“Oh, shucks, I’ll be just as careful. Now lemme try. Say - I’ll give you the core of my apple.”

“Well, here - No, Ben, no you don’t. I’m afeared --”

“I’ll give you all of it!”

Tom gave up the brush with reluctance in his face, but alacrity in his heart. And while the late steamer Big Missouri worked and sweated in the sun, the retired artist sat on a barrel in the shade close by, dangled his legs munched his apple, and planned the slaughter of more innocents. There was no lack of material; boys happened along every little while; they came to jeer, but remained to whitewash. By the time Ben was fagged out, Tom had traded the next chance to Billy fisher for a kite in good repair; and when he played out, Johnny Miller bought in for a dead rat and a string to sing it with - and so on, hour after hour. And when the middle of the afternoon came, from being a poor poverty-stricken boy in the morning, Tom was literally rolling wealth. He had, besides the things before mentioned, twelve marbles, part of a jew’s-harp, a piece of blue bottle-glass to look through, a spoon cannon, a key that wouldn’t unlock anything, a fragment of chalk, a glass stopper of a decanter, a tin soldier, a couple of tadpoles, a kitten with only one eye, a brass door-knob, a dog-collar-but no dog - the handle of a knife, four pieces of orange-peel, and a dilapidated window-sash.

He had had a nice, good, idle time all the while - plenty of company - and the fence had three coats of whitewash on it! If he hadn’t run out of whitewash, he would have bankrupted every boy in the village.

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby stiltrubld » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:29 am

Interesting point Tootsie.

If people want to do 'endurance' tests there are plenty of things to do in that line - much more fun than washing up!

In my time we didn't do that much in the line of physical work other than looking after ourselves whilst on residentials. It was the long days that made everyone so tired, but again this is something that was decided upon for some reason or other and then kept to fairly rigidly. I do think if the 'courses' were overhauled there is useful stuff to learn, which I know many on this forum probably don't agree with.

I don't know who's getting rich - that would be outright corruption. But status certainly - with a gender bias.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby Tootsie » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:51 pm

I would agree that school is not all bad and there is 'useful stuff to learn' as you put it. This weekend went to see Taming of the Shrew put on by an all female cast which was interesting. Kate's speech at the end where she says Thy husband is thy lord, thy life, thy keeper. Thy head, thy sovereign; one that cares for thee, may have been appropriate in Shakespeare's time but not today. Yet Kate's speech is held in high regard in the school, because it keeps women in their place and overlooks the fact that all men are not all gentlemen! Women do get a raw deal in school, there is no doubt about that.

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby stiltrubld » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:51 pm

Funny you should mention the Taming of the Shrew because I remember even quite early on people were always trying to sell me tickets for that bloomin' play in SES! They must have got the youngsters to put it on almost every year. I always wondered what the 'hidden' message would be, not being particularly knowledgeable about Shakespeare. But I never bothered to find out till fairly recently and sure enough it was exactly what I expected - trying to 'tame' some poor female.

I began to be able to tell when there was an SES 'subliminal' coming my way. I read somewhere here of at least one person saying that after asking challenging questions in a group meeting one evening, the following week a story was told which answered the question, but from the SES perspective, I think that was the gist of it anyway. I have had many such experiences and I think this maybe something which would be helpful to know how many others have experienced. Trouble is you can never quite put your finger on it, or remember specific times it occured. The effect is that it responds to the question indirectly and in a manner that gives the 'party line' response without the questioner being able to comment on the response, since the response is not direct. If this goes on extensively it also indicates that there is a deliberate system set up to achieve this end of deftly sidestepping pertinent questions, and keeping the rest of the group 'on track'.
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby Tootsie » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:16 am

Stiltrubld did you know that arranged marriages are a common practise in school? Marriage is seen as a settling influence as long as there is an age difference of at least 7 years between the couple. I know this is true through experience!

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby stiltrubld » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:56 am

Yes I know something of the arranged marriages. How did it go in experience?! Is it 'settling'? One thing I will say which I have mentioned before is that now in London in the level I was in, the marriages are between people of about the same age, and not arranged as far as I know, and there were lots of lovely couples.
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

Jo-Anne Morgan
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:23 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby Jo-Anne Morgan » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:38 am

Women do get a raw deal in school, there is no doubt about that.

Yes they certainly do, Tootsie. It's not apparent at first of course. It started to become apparent to me when we started the study days, with men being sent to do things like gardening and the women the cooking and cleaning. I mentioned this to my tutor but she laughed in my face and made out I was being ridiculous and paranoid, a frequent tactic of course from the long-standing members, the true 'Pod People' :-D

The other thing I began to notice was how some of the more 'senior' men behaved in a childish and juvenile way when they got together in a group. They had this sort of easy arrogance with some of the women, talking down to them and making silly comments at their expense. It somehow felt like being with a bunch of 14 year olds. I don't know whether the SES attracts men like that or whether it creates them. It seemed like a case of arrested development.

There was an odd split actually. There were those men who behaved like juveniles, then there were the older, even more 'senior' men who looked on indulgently like their parents. The one residential I went on, it certainly felt like being a child again, being patronised and talked down to. The only men I felt comfortable with were the ones who hadn't been in the SES too long (no more than about 4 years) so retained some semblance of normality.

Ahamty2
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:03 am

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby Ahamty2 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:42 pm

If only Free, we were to know these things when we naively joined the SES with rose tinted glasses of doing good in the world all those years ago, so idealistic of us.

Ah! Those were the days in the Sydney SOP under the leadership of MM. As a member of the Sydney so called ‘top’ group, our Friday Group night with MM and Assistant Tutor, Madame M was a real Gurdjieff experience. It may begin with the “material” but it usually ended up with being four to five hours of severe character assassination, en masse. We just sat there like stuffed dummies while MM indulged in his usual sadistic manner of ripping each one of us to shreds. Lord help you, if anyone dared to nod while he was at it. And the thing is, we let him do it to us, all in the name of Truth. This is what we paid our term fees to receive!

Then, there was the privilege of second line work at “The House” in Neutral Bay. Here MM was at his most revealing as he could let his guard down without fear or favour. Doing second line work under the watchful eye of the Leader of the School where his real narcissistic character came to the fore, you were then at the mercy of his cruel and ruthless crudity. Why some members of other groups thought that we were special to work under MM, didn’t really know what it was like.

MM arranged a few marriages amongst us, but heaven help you if you married without his blessings and dare to bear any children without his absolute sanction and permission. They are a distraction to the “Work”. After all, they were childless themselves, so how dare you have children of your own!

Why had we become so demoralized and so subservient to allow strangers take over our lives and rule us in such a manner? If you should complain or criticize the Leader for his manner there was always a mystical pidgeon to deliver it to his ear! There was a fellow in Germany that did the same thing, some time back.

Tootsie, any good one gained from being in the School was minuscule compared to the price one had to pay in order to obtain it. I learnt more about Vedanta in a short time after leaving than all the years in SOP. I often wonder how much of the sacred words of HH we were given were actually his or were they actually the gibbering of Jaiswal himself and his own interpretations to have a controlling influence in the SES as indicated by Dorine Tolley .

I thought Caroline Stern’s description in “Shame on You” of how she thought the sacred teachings reached London is a classic.

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: SES Origins and Character

Postby Tootsie » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:44 pm

Ahamty can I ask you if 'Shame on You' is worth reading? Read Dorine Tolley's book and got very little from it. Like you my experience came from the Sydney SOP under Mavro, which may not have been the best conditions to judge anything by.

Did you ever do any work at Mount Wilson and who owns it now?


Return to “General discussion of SES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests