Sex before Marriage

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
Misty

Postby Misty » Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:08 am

Alban wrote:
So this does beg the question of both of you (Misty and antises) of how you view marriage. What is it to you? It is obviously not a celebration of love if you are promoting the theory that love will come later!



This is the question I was trying to ask all of you earlier on in the thread. However people insisted to keep talking about sex. Even so I doubt even u've answered your own question. What is marriage to you?

Misty

Postby Misty » Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:13 am

a different guest wrote:
If you are agreeing the to last point in that post, then why did you make such a scarcastic response to mine?


I'm lost. Would you mind quoting where I was being scarcastic?

If you are refering to the "twaddle" post. I was not being scarcastic at all. Even though I really did wan't to give you back a dose of your own medicine.

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adrasteia
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Postby adrasteia » Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:26 am

Misty wrote:What is marriage to you?


Well I can try and proffer my humble opinion on marriage! Although I feel that I will be working on it throughout my life as I experience more and more of its aspects.

For me marriage would be a result of love, so I'd better start off by defining what I think love is:
Love grows out of friendship for me. The actual person, warts and all, then attracts me far more strongly than purely physical attraction (which I know can be bloody strong!)- it becomes difficult for me to say what it is that I love, because it is just all of 'them', and their qualities/characteristics, all that makes them who they are.
It seems a bit calmer and surer than purely physical attraction, I suppose there is most trust from more knowledge of the person.
Marriage then eventually grows out of the love, when it is strong enough. I suppose it comes out of the desire to always be together, making each other happy, helping, supporting. Also I guess the desire to create things together- children being the most obvious example!
Marriage is, I suppose, a symbol of those desires.

will add a bit more when I get a mo.
hope it helps!

Alban
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Postby Alban » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:09 am

Exactly - good answer!

The point I was trying to get over to Misty and co (not that she answered the question herself) is that marriage comes from, and is a celebration of, love. Unfortunately it is clear that someone in SES or a teacher in St James (probably both) has sold them the idea of arranged mariages and they have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Now if I was a sardonic man, I would be suggesting that it is promoted as a means whereby the sadder (and more senior) men in the SES can get themselves nice young obedient virgins to marry and boss about......but that would be just a little too close to 'cultish' behavior for comfort, wouldn't it!............However, a certain amount of waking up and smelling the coffee is required don't you think?

Misty wrote:What is marriage to you?

Having extensively posted my thoughts on marriage, I posed the question to you, and that is the best you can come back with?

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:58 pm

Alban wrote:Exactly - good answer!

The point I was trying to get over to Misty and co (not that she answered the question herself) is that marriage comes from, and is a celebration of, love. Unfortunately it is clear that someone in SES or a teacher in St James (probably both) has sold them the idea of arranged mariages and they have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Now if I was a sardonic man, I would be suggesting that it is promoted as a means whereby the sadder (and more senior) men in the SES can get themselves nice young obedient virgins to marry and boss about......but that would be just a little too close to 'cultish' behavior for comfort, wouldn't it!............However, a certain amount of waking up and smelling the coffee is required don't you think?

Misty wrote:What is marriage to you?

Having extensively posted my thoughts on marriage, I posed the question to you, and that is the best you can come back with?


Sorry, I'm not exaclty competing with you, or in any way arguing.... at the moment. So if you want me to come out with a more vigorous reply, which you will only come back at me and say "I dont' think the meditation is working on you" (or somthing along the lines like that), it isn't going to happen!

It's been so long, I don't even remember what we were talking about.

However since you brought up the idea about arranged marriages I shall start with that!

I am not a part of the SES, and no one in St James (not even the head mistress) has brought up the idea of arranged marriages. So I advice you to ask me politely, instead of assuming irrationaly!

My idea of arranged marriages has come from past generations of my family. Where by most of my ancestors lived in a part of the world where arranged marriages were a part of the culture. Therefore, i do not see arranged marriages as something bad or repulsive.

Alban
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Postby Alban » Sat May 01, 2004 1:40 pm

Guest wrote:It's been so long, I don't even remember what we were talking about. .


Read the thread if you're not sure! The main item on the thread that caused me to ridicule the whole idea is that of the 5 tenets that were given to the "students" for picking a suitable partner to marry - and guess what - Love was nowhere to be seen.

As for arranged marriages - they were going on when I was there (normally between relatively senior male members of the SES and St Vedast and St. James girls. They may not be termed "arranged marriages", but the terms that were used came along the lines of a strong suggestion. Call it what you will, but it is the same thing in my book.

It should also be noted that in cultures where arranged marriages are the norm, the rights of women are invariably a great deal lower than the rights of their husbands. Indeed, a large amount of abuse and unhappiness is accepted and put up with without complaint. My point is that, what may be acceptable to many millions of people used to living with this inequality, is not acceptable in the western world, where we have completely different values.

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adrasteia
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Postby adrasteia » Sun May 02, 2004 1:27 pm

I can't comment on arranged marriages, as I don't know much about them in practice. Although I do feel that everyone is throwing around -quite different- statements without many facts to back them up, but that's just a side point.
I think I can say something more about St. Jame's 'arranged marriages'. In the 'old days' you'll find that quite a few of the teachers managed to get themselves married to pupils of the school. (This is only male teachers as far as I'm aware!) This was quite acceptable in the eyes of Ses, I should think it was encouraged- most pupils were in Ses which was somewhere else they would have met the teachers, but it's probably quite illegal now, but as far as I can see it's not openly encouraged any more.
In Ses it's quite customary to ask Mr. Lambi whether a decision to get married is a good one, (one of the guidelines 'laid down by the wise' indicates that asking a teacher/guru etc. is a good idea.)
I have no problem with people asking for advice on important decisions, but I feel that it's dangerous if his word is taken as law. Mr. Lambi is only human, and therefore may make mistakes, which in decisons of this weight could be very damaging.
People must have a certain amount of independence to make the actual desicions themselves, after all, it is impossible for Mr. Lambi to know all their feelings and everything about them.
If people are strong enough then I think they will take Mr. Lambi's words as advice only and will be strong enough to go against them if necessary. But I am afraid others will treat it as law, which is what the attitude of the Ses will encourage, and this is what I do not agree with.

mgormez
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Postby mgormez » Sun May 02, 2004 4:58 pm

adrasteia wrote:I think I can say something more about St. Jame's 'arranged marriages'. In the 'old days' you'll find that quite a few of the teachers managed to get themselves married to pupils of the school. (This is only male teachers as far as I'm aware!)


I find that immoral. Disgusting even. Such a marriage would never start from an equal footing. Doctors shouldn't screw around with their patient because the patients are in a depending relation with their physicians. Likewise with those teachers. They misused their position.
Mike Gormez

Antises

Postby Antises » Sun May 02, 2004 11:07 pm

Alban wrote:It should also be noted that in cultures where arranged marriages are the norm, the rights of women are invariably a great deal lower than the rights of their husbands....


I believe that this discussion about arranged marriages = diminished rights of women has already been mentioned before in this thread, but I shall repeat what I believe. What many people term descrimination in arranged marriages is often simply recognition that men and women are different types of people, with different roles in life, an idea readily refuted in the western world but which has been applied successfully (to the advantage of everyone) among certain communities nonetheless. There is no intention to discriminate against women. Do you know, Alban, of many women from arranged marriages who have been abused or are unhappy in any way? All the couples I know who have had arranged marriages are very happy, and I have no reason to believe that the women are (as you suggest) 'putting up with it without complaint'. Compare that to the 50% of marriages which become divorces as they are supposedly based solely on 'love' (read 'infatuation').

Also, traditional arranged marriages in the western world are virtually non-existent. The few that occur and go wildly wrong are heavily publicized. The vast majority of "arranged marriages" today in the west merely involve taking advice from someone who is trusted, just as adrasteia explained. Of course, this relies on the person looking for a partner being independent enough to make any decision. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with giving/taking advice, as long as it is just advice. Regarding the SES in particular, I cannot see any personal gain that Mr. Lambie can attain by giving advice, or what evil he may intend. I cannot comment on whether the marriage between the male teacher and his pupil was morally acceptable. What I can say is that they are still married, and happily at that, which is quite an achievement considering current rates of divorce.

mgormez
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Postby mgormez » Mon May 03, 2004 12:08 am

Antises wrote:What I can say is that they are still married, and happily at that, which is quite an achievement considering current rates of divorce.


Look, even a broken clock is rigth twice a day. That doesn't make it okay. I don't understand why you don't want to make a judgement on it, but we are just different and that the way it is. But do you find it ethical that those SES teacher were probably already selecting their brides while teaching the girls?

Personally, it just makes my skin crawl.

As a side note, as far as I know it is standard practice in my country that volunteers who work with mentally handicapped people sign a paper declaring that if they ever would start a relation with a patient, it will be exit for them. And that is for good reasons. Those people need to be protected, just as the girls should have been protected against the SES predators in my view.
Mike Gormez

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adrasteia
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Postby adrasteia » Mon May 03, 2004 9:31 am

Antises wrote:There is nothing intrinsically wrong with giving/taking advice, as long as it is just advice. Regarding the SES in particular, I cannot see any personal gain that Mr. Lambie can attain by giving advice, or what evil he may intend.


I guess that was my point, it's ok if it's just advice. But I know that some people would take Mr. Lambi's word as absolute law. I am not suggesting that he is trying to be evil or gain anything from giving advice, I'm absolutely sure he would be trying to do the best for the person(s), he's just trying to help them when they come to him. But he may get it wrong, which is where it becomes dangerous. ie. He may make a decision based on incomplete facts, or without really understanding the person and their feelings etc. (I'm basically re-stating my last message now!)

Antises wrote:I cannot comment on whether the marriage between the male teacher and his pupil was morally acceptable. What I can say is that they are still married, and happily at that, which is quite an achievement considering current rates of divorce.


The counter argument to 'it was morally wrong: they were teacher and pupil' could be: that they did also meet outside school, in Ses. So if 'spouse selection' was going on while they were still 'pupil and teacher' then it could be argued that it only took place outside school, and therefore was morally acceptable. But surely aspects of it would have spilled over? They may have met at school, which was/is very much an exstention of Ses, even if the teachers did not actively teach the girls.
But Ses encouraged marriages between teachers and pupils don't happen now, as far as I'm aware -maybe the teachers just too old! or maybe they realised that it wasn't morally acceptable to the rest of the world?

>probably should have said "marriages between teachers and ex-pupils" in that last paragraph!<
Last edited by adrasteia on Tue May 04, 2004 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Antises

Postby Antises » Mon May 03, 2004 5:52 pm

The reason why I would not comment on whether the marriage between teacher and pupil was morally acceptable is this: I do not know the specifics of when and how their marriage was decided. Yes, they will have met at school, but perhaps a relationship was only decided upon when the pupil was no longer at the school, so there was no longer a teacher-pupil relationship. The fact is I don't know.

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adrasteia
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Postby adrasteia » Tue May 04, 2004 1:24 pm

Antises wrote:I cannot comment on whether the marriage between the male teacher and his pupil was morally acceptable. What I can say is that they are still married, and happily at that, which is quite an achievement considering current rates of divorce.


I suppose I cannot really comment either, not being either a teacher or pupil from either situation. I am just disturbed by what the situation implies, as Mike commented. We can never really know what went on, I don't know if there are any 'witnesses' or any proof of anything. Marriage certificates are about the only thing, and I don't have them! We can be sure that the Ses aproved however- they are still in Ses! If they had got married against Ses advice they would not still be in the school, I 'know' as definitely as I can, that they would have been 'chucked out'. So either this means that is was a morally acceptable situation, or that Ses felt it was above the law in those situations.
But just to make absolutely clear that no-one has the wrong idea- the pupils were EX-pupils when they married the teachers! I don't have figures for how 'ex' they were though, will try to find out if I get a mo sometime.
Do you know the couples involved Antises?

Guest

Marriages

Postby Guest » Tue May 04, 2004 3:28 pm

mgormez wrote:
But do you find it ethical that those SES teacher were probably already selecting their brides while teaching the girls?

Personally, it just makes my skin crawl.


What a lurid imagination you have, Mike.

How about this scenario: He is 23 or 24, gorgeous, intelligent, recently finished at uni, teaching in the boys' school. She is 18, gorgeous, intelligent, studying for A Levels in the girls' school. Their two families are long-term friends. They meet socially. They fall in love.

Why shouldn't they marry in due course, once she has left school?

mgormez
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Re: Marriages

Postby mgormez » Tue May 04, 2004 10:51 pm

Guest wrote:
mgormez wrote:
But do you find it ethical that those SES teacher were probably already selecting their brides while teaching the girls?

Personally, it just makes my skin crawl.


What a lurid imagination you have, Mike.


Thank you. It has served me well.

Guest wrote:How about this scenario: He is 23 or 24, gorgeous, intelligent, recently finished at uni, teaching in the boys' school. She is 18, gorgeous, intelligent, studying for A Levels in the girls' school. Their two families are long-term friends. They meet socially. They fall in love.

Why shouldn't they marry in due course, once she has left school?


Your scenario is somehow less imaginative than mine, how? Do you have prove or are you firing off what-could-have-beens?

But if there never was a teacher-student relation, and they only met outside the schools and not some SES influence was at play, I see no problem. I wouldn't do it, but if he does; fine.
Mike Gormez


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